Yeah no... Perks like this are an example of the bandwidth of variety that sets destiny apart. What needs to be done is reduce the fire rate of efrideets spear. I blame black hammers signature perk "white nail" for the high impact low fire rate archetype of snipers being unbalanced. Thing is that black hammer is too much fun as is. So the archetype kinda can't be changed.

Not exactly sure what you think that would accomplish as you have to reload after the final round and all other sniper 2 shot to the body anyways.

Its about the rhythm of the weapon. Each archetype should embody a trade off that makes comparisons of the different archetypes a matter of preference. Before I go on I need to clarify what I mean by "archetype". I'm pretty sure you understand but for the sake of other interested parties I'll elaborate. Technically I'm using the wrong term to delineate the different versions of snipers out there. Snipers as a whole are an archetype in the scope of all weapons. Within that archetype there are distinct subtypes of snipers. Low impact high fire-rate is an easily identifiable example. The point is that ideally there should be distinct tradeoffs that equalize the potential of the different sub-types. A weapon that has such a high amount of stopping power should have recoil and fire rate inhibit subsequent shot placement... In the base models of these weapons we see exactly that... The problem arises from perks mitigating the detractors inherent to the weapon balance... In the case of the spear the main detractor is recoil... Which is mitigated by stability oriented perks. Why the sub-type that hits the hardest uses recoil instead of fire-rate as an equalizer is most probably due to the nature of black hammers white nail perk which requires subsequently placed hits in a short span of time. If efrideets spear had a fire rate akin to or greater than the no land beyond it would not be as easily used, and would not be the clear cut choice in terms of crucible use. All that said I don't think there is a way to reduce the efficacy of efrideets spear without running the risk of turning everything "gray". If you step back and look at the highlights in the scope of weapons it feels right that there are gems that stand out amongst what's available. I see the issue here as a matter of players being able to adapt to what is possible concerning the potential of what opponents can bring to bear in PvP. If you are aware of the overpowering nature of a weapon you CAN overcome it by adjusting how you engage. Felwinters lie is a perfect example. It used to be a problem for me to encounter. Now it isn't so much... I adjusted how I handle cqc engagement and many times I stay just outside of their effective range and they keep rushing into my backpedaling fire and die looking dumb. If I kept employing the same pattern as I used to which was to come in closer i would still be having problems with it. The gun exploits player behavior tendencies for maximal effect. A final round spear is no different. If you stay out of sight lines that play into the strengths of the spear it loses its edge. When you are nested with a sniper you pick things off, forcing a sniper out of the nest to seek out points brings back balance. Its kind of tedious but realistically a great player will do the same thing with a faster firing weapon. You get a really twitchy shooter on the other team and you'll have the same dilemma to contend with.

Gotcha. I did know what you meant by archtypes and I can hear what you are saying to an extent. I see your explanation clearly but I disagree with you about the fire rate being a problem to begin with. The Spear already fires slow. Significantly slower than the Praedyth/chose/prudence archtype and even noticeably slower than the LDR/Longbow archtype. Personally I don't think that the recoil/stability even matters on the Spear because you can correct pretty easily by the time you are allowed to fire again. Every weapon type in the game has the exchange between Impact and RoF where you lose one when you gain the other and the Spear is no different. Spear has super high impact but you lose the fire rate advantage of the praedyth's type that allows you to get body shot kills with 2 quick shots so I think the trade off is balanced. <<My comment was regarding the final Final Round perk and I am still unclear on where that ties in to your opinion on the fire rate.>>> Though I disagree with you about the issue of Spear's RoF I think that that is pretty clever that you would find an explanation to the perceived problem in the Black Hammer's White Nail perk :) I definitely appreciated that thought. For the sake of clarity I will explain why I don't think that the Spear's RoF is an issue. The two possibilities I see where RoF is a consideration is when you are 1) getting 2 shot body kills and 2) when you are chaining headshots. 1) any other sniper in the game besides the Hammer and Spear will chain body shots quicker so there is no advantage to the Spear in that Situation. 2) Chaining headshots will also be much slower with the Spear so there is no advantage to the Spear there. The place where the Spear archtype has an advantage is in the body shot damage output and the ability to one shot someone through an overshield/defense buff. Both of these advantages have nothing to do with RoF which I can explain why I say that if you want.

Firstly thanks for reading. Its nice to find worthy conjecture here man. I suppose that my position is incorporating possibilities that aren't part of the game we have. Moreover I didn't elaborate on what I see in my mind as potential solutions. From a balancing standpoint perks that mitigate the inherent balance of an "archetype" should reintroduce something as compensation for its added benefit. Except of course the trade off of not having another perk. Fundamentally the spear fires much much to fast for its damage through put in [i]crucible[/i] Outside of crucible the weapon doesn't flag as an overpowering piece of equipment. It has GREAT efficacy but that worth isn't game breaking. In the crucible the weapon has a very real tier of functionality of the highest caliber. With a perk set hand picked for crucible it is in class all its own. A perk like final round on the high impact class should dramatically increase the amount of time it takes to reload... Why it doesn't is probably the impact final round has on other lower impact snipers. (Nothing really special) A solution for that would be to increase the reload speed proportional to impact. The higher the impact the greater the effect. If you shoot ordinance with that kind of potential power there should be a very real risk associated with it. It should cause you to be vulnerable in a way that makes missing a potential disaster. Problem is that I like the highlights in the scope of available weapons. Iron banner is a great thing. And the incentive high tier weapons represent is critical to the drive of ascending the ranks of IB. i love my efrideets spear, but I unerringly use the version with field scout... Final round is neat and all but without unflinching it has a great potential to be just a wasted bullet. What's more I doubt i would want to give up surplus for unflinching. Im trying to get headshots anyway, so more bullets is better for me. Ideally I would want unflinching, field scout, and surplus. Interestingly I have an apr +final round + rodeo version and despite trying to use it I can't stand having three bullets in the chamber. Maybe I am just not into exploits and enjoy the classic sniper meta. Thanks again for the great conversation.

Or at least nerf it for Crucible... :/

How would you nerf final round? You can't.

... Reduce the damage for it to where it takes down a HUGE chunk of your health(Like 99/100 of your health) but not outright kill you.

Then final round would be more useless than broom bot

Pft no it wouldn't... That's just making it to where nobody can get oneshotted all the time by these Tryhards. Plus even though it'll be one of those perks that might find more use in PVE than PVP but will still have some use for it in PVP nonetheless.

Why the -blam!- would I use a final round spear in PvE, ever? Final round's purpose is to allow high impact snipers in crucible 1 shot with the last bullet in the mag. Nerfing that will make it obsolete. The spear already brings enemies to 1 shot kill (with body shots), even with husk of the pit.