I have Thorn, TLW and Hawkmoon and my PvP skills did not get better. Those PvP badasses were still PvP badasses regardless. I am not sure why people think that good weapons in the hands of crappy players is the issue. Ever thought that Girl/Guy using Thorn just got really comfortable and good with it. Nope my ego won't stand for it it must be the weapons. The amount of things OP in Destiny is staggering I am surprised anything gets buffed in 2.0.

tldr: guns aren't really op people just suck

TTT

thorn is strong. No Match for my Hopscotch though! :D two hits and your down! :DD

Bump

bump!

Remember the original [armory]Silimar's Wrath[/armory] Auto Rifle? Max Rof with Stupid Low Impact, kind of like Atheon's Epilogue or Necrochasm. Reforged one with Perfect Balance, Counter Balance, and Glass Half Full for a lead-spewing death-hose. Ran that sucker for MONTHS in the Crucible, In Iron Banner, even in PvE. It was a highly underrated weapon. Lately, I've been using a 1/1 Synesthete Scout Rifle with Full Auto. Thorn, TLW, Red Death, Snipers... Nobody is unbeatable. Play with a weapon that FUN to play with rather than the one that's EASY to play with. I don't care if my K/D drops to a .35 in a match. Sometimes you get outplayed. Whatever. It's just a game. Figure out a new strategy and get back to slaying. Anyway, well said. You make good points.

Excellent read. So many good points made. Bump

Excellent, well thought out & expressed post. Thanks for taking the time.

They destroyed the Vex, I can't wait to hear the community outrage when they destroy the Gjallerhorn by nerfing it "accidently" 50% more than they were supposed to.

When I was pulling my friend through trials I put this thorn user on blast on the end of my sniper rifle and my red death. That match was great.

I agree that Thorn is cheap but all players will never be satisfied no matter the change. You also forgot to mention Hawkmoon and the infamous Last Word. Those guns are broken too. They kill players so fast with the enhanced damage perks it's ridiculous. Hawkmoon one shots at times and Last Word kills at longer range like a sniper rifle with a super fire rate. The precision perk on Last Word applies when aiming down sites. The Hawkmoon perk and luck in the chamber seem to register for one bullet. It's not just Thorn that's bullshit in my opinion along with other gun types as well. The game is just to unbalanced.

Good post, but..... You're Wrong. We are not dumb. We played the game long enough to figure out what weapons work well and which don't. If a certain weapon load out or strategy works better than the rest then most of the players base will use that. That's why we see so many Thorn users and Blnking shotgunners in crucible. Do you actually think those players are you choosing those load outs under false belief? Such things can only get you so far. Your theory sounds good on paper, but in a game their are always going something that is out of balance or be considered OP. That is the Purpose of these Forums because not even the Developers can figure out what things in their own game are OP or underpowered. Thorn was OP and the Data proved that and in fact the the number of Thorn users would have been greater if some players had not been resisting the current meta. I just started using Thorn and that other nonsense in the last Iron Banner and I wrecked it. The only games in which I didn't do well were when I started using my Monte Carlo. I was making top of the leader boards. In every other Iron Banner I did average and did not use Thorn.

Thorn is hated because it's lethality & range is second to none among primaries. Even if you don't score lethal damage, you've effectively taken a player out of the fight for a long time. It's range and lethality is being toned down, which is good, but it will still take players out of a fight for a long time and inflict lethal damage in 3 bodyshots, something that no legendary HC can do without Final Round or LitC so it will still be worthy of its Exotic slot.

[quote]Greetings fellow Guardians, I'd like to take a moment to weigh in on the [i]Great Thorn Debate[/i] that has been raging on the forums for some time now. It seems like half of all posts are regarding Thorn at times and I'd like to offer up a different perspective on the situation. From the polls that have gone up, those who think Thorn is fine generally seems to fall in the 68-75% range, but the other 25-32% resolutely believe that it is completely broken. The truth lies somewhat in the middle, but in the end I believe it is a completely fair weapon and here is why. Destiny is different that other shooters. In Halo, we had generic weapons and started with either the same loadout or different random weapons. Any shotgun was the same shotgun, any pistol was the same pistol. We had the same grenades and the same abilities. In Destiny, we take the weapons and armor we find in the world into PvP. We have different classes that can be set up with different perks and abilities to suit our style of play. It's something really unique to the shooter experience, but rather than embrace that, it seems that some are continually trying to tear it down and to make every weapon and class function the same (No, Titans don't need Blink). Once upon a time, the object of everyone's desire/scorn was the Vex Mythoclast, then it was Suros Regime, that was followed by Felwinter's Lie and now we have the undeniable king of the nerf threads, THORN. The problem with all of them is that none of them are true. Sure they are all great weapons, but unstoppable? Uncounterable? The only weapon anyone uses? None of those things are fact. Vex Mythoclast. A Fusion Rifle that functions as a primary and is Full Auto. Essentially it is an uber badass AR and at mid range has always been devastating... but even in it's heyday, it was never unstoppable. I routinely successfully battled Vex users with Suros, MIDA, Up for Anything and Vanquisher. Suros Regime. The first Iron Banners were affectionately referred to in many a post as[i] Iron Suros [/i]and [i]Suros Banner[/i]. It's range and stability made it a superb weapon in almost any situation and it was professed that if you didn't have one, you couldn't win. Of course no one ever brought up that the slow RoF meant that landing your shots was a premium requirement for success. Miss a couple of rounds and you'd find yourself killed by hand cannons, scout rifles, High RoF ARs and even first gen Pulse Rifles. Felwinter's Lie. This one was affectionately known as [i]the best sniper rifle in the game[/i]. Once more, if you didn't have Felwinter's, you couldn't possibly win in the crucible. Except that anyone with a Fusion Rifle and even a rudimentary understanding of the radar's functionality pretty much laughed their way to high kill counts as enemy after enemy tried to rush or outgun from range with their Felwinter's. Thorn. The primary with the DoT. Affectionately known as F**K THORN!!!!! Probably responsible for more broken controllers that any weapon ever. A really good Hand Cannon and with the ability to kill with poison after the victims take cover. The only problem being that, meeting in the open and engaging head to head, Thorn can be outgunned by any number of weapons in the game. Personally, the absolute most devastating weapon I see in the crucible is Red Death. I'd rather face Thorn than Red Death 10 times out of 10. Dumbo's Feather. A feather that Dumbo carried in his trunk because it was the most OP feather in the history of well, feathers... and it allowed him to fly even though he was just an Elephant with big dopey ears. Only he lost the feather and he could still fly. The feather wasn't magic and it didn't make him fly, it was him that could fly. Vex Mythoclast, Suros Regime, Felwinter's Lie and Thorn are all wonderful weapons and every single one of them is or has been Dumbo's feather. Take Vex out of a players hands that is getting 25 kills a game and give them Shadow Price, give a 25 kpg Suros user MIDA, a Felwinter's user Invective or Plug One, a Thorn user Red Death or Red Hand... do you think they're going to drop off and suddenly be bad? I switched from Suros to MIDA in the middle of the second IB and my kills went up. I'm reading all these posts that you can't win without Suros and laughing with each MIDA kill. These weapons give people confidence to know they can compete because they are really great weapons. I may not know anything about Up for Anything and whether I can get kills with it or not, but I know that everyone loves Suros so using it gives me that initial confidence that I stand a chance and it's a great thing to know. It's after you know that you can compete that you realize that it isn't because of the weapon in your hand, but rather that you've learned the maps, you've developed strategies, you're intimately familiar with your class, your abilities, your grenades and your super. You know what weapon classes suit your style the best and what perks you like to use and that's when you realize that there are so many amazing weapons in this game and if you're just willing to put down the flavor of the month, you've got the whole candy store to explore. So why the inordinate hate for those weapons? I have a theory on that as well. Vex was so divisive because it was a raid drop and let's face it, a very low % have completed the raids to this day. Here you had this amazing weapon and it was all but impossible for 80% of the player base to ever have. Suros was a random world drop and the exclusivity of it brought it's first detractors. Then Xur sold it and that set off the kids without the coins even more. Felwinter's required you to rank up IB or get lucky and get one as a drop after rank 3 the IB after it was sold. Again, those that weren't regular PvPers, who gave up on ranking felt left out. Thorn and it's glorious, glorious bounty and 500 Void points. It doesn't matter that if you're getting void kills that you only need above a 0.40 k/d to make progress. The minute people saw their score drop from one game to the next, it was over for them. It's one thing to die to something you think you might get, but the exclusivity was more than people could bear. If they couldn't have one, no one should have one. Beyond that with Thorn, even though it's 100% counterable, the nature of the weapon lends itself to hiding and taking pot shots. Stand in the open with Thorn and your going to get as good as you give. Hit me with a Thorn round and take cover and if I've already suffered damage from you or elsewhere, your poison can finish me. People already get enraged when they think others are camping. Snipers aren't going to be invited to too many popularity contests. Now add a poison DoT from someone hiding behind a wall or corner and people went berserk. Of course they could have always thrown a grenade and flushed the Thorn user out or flanked or waited for the poison to wear off and outgun them, but none of those options matter because [i]I died and it's not fair[/i]. Never mind that they may have been killed by you the previous 5 times you met up that match. all it takes is one poison death and there is no fairness in the world. It's so easy to get angry and to cry out against the things you can't beat. It doesn't mean they're unbeatable. The point of competition is to be [i]challenged[/i] and the only way to get better is to face odds you don't think you can win and use all the resources at your disposal, including that beautiful brain inside your head, to out think, out perform and out strategize your opponents. A victory over a better opponent is infinitely more satisfying than running roughshod over noobs. Will you lose some? Sure. Will you get better for it? Without a doubt. Do you need a magic feather? You never have and you never will. See you in the Crucible. -------------------------------------- Edit: The point of competition is to be challenged. Weapons like Thorn should be fun to face and try to outgun. Where's the fun of facing weapons that have been nerfed into the ground? Destiny isn't designed to be perfectly balanced. The great weapons generally have to be worked for to get and deserve to be great. In my opinion if Bungie want balance, they need to put all generic weapons in. If they want us to use our own, people need to use a little more skill to compensate when outgunned. It used to be so much more satisfying to kill a Vex user and facing it made you better. What's wrong with facing that challenge? ---------------------------------------------- Edit 2: For all the spread sheet junkies. Your stats are wonderful on paper, but Destiny isn't played in a vacuum. There are so many other variables that go into each and every single PvP encounter that it makes each and every aspect of a weapon matter as much or more than TTK. The thing with play tests and legendaries is that there are hundreds of possible perk combinations and your not testing them all or taking into account the advantages they can give. 3rd Eye, Glass Half Full, Full Auto, Headseeker, Final Round, etc, etc... Thorn is a great weapon. Vex is a great weapon. Felwinter's is a great weapon. If they're all unbeatable, why isn't everyone using them 40-0 with a 40.0 k/d? Every single one of you screaming OP know for a fact that they're dying just as much as you. It's a [i]game[/i]. Try having fun.[/quote]

Bump