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Edited by GMRcris:
6/6/2015 7:39:05 PM
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I read your post but I'm sorry saying it's not OP is a absurd argument.
I think most people concern is that it'll bleed into PvE. Which most PvP aren't asking for. We're asking for it to be looked at individually in PvP.
The true reason Thorn is OP is its TTK. If you haven't actually taken the time to look at destiny TTK chart, then I'm not sure you should be throwing in your two cents on the gun, it kills in .36 seconds. Yes that's less than half a second. The second fastest killer in the game is the very often discussed TLW, which kills in .53 seconds. Yes that's about half a second. I know people will bring up Hawkmoon and it's one shot capability but the reality is that guns RNG, it's not CONSISTENT. Thats why it's not as used. It's not consistent but instead dependent on a ability that randomly triggers. People don't want to bring in randomness to their gunfights.
Some people say "oh well it's easy to counter" sure it's manageable against sub par players. But I'm sure at some point you've come across these so called "skilled players" and their Thorns and TLW and realized using anything but the exact same loadout meant defeat. There is nothing skillful about these weapons. Truthfull there's nothing that skillful about destiny in general, we're talking about a game where there's actually a perk that increases aim assist (hidden hand) and grenades that legit out lock on to people and require very little nade skill (arc/fire/axion bolts) and let's not pretend the headshot hitbox isn't the size of a planet.
In short in a very casual shooter like destiny Thorn and TLW aren't helping the cause. People liked Halo cause it was balanced, far more than Destiny but here's another reason, gunfights took SKILL it requires skill to have not only target acquisition but also maintain it cause you know your opponents didn't drop in 2-3 bullets. If you guys want to keep Thorn/TLW at the top of the food chain, you can't really bag on CoD for taking no skill cause essentially you die in 2-3 bullets in that too. There's a reason that franchise is so popular, it made every feel good about themselves. Anyone with lackluster aim suddenly was good cause all it took to kill some one was 2-3 bullets.
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Aim is aim for a little time or a long time. You can be skilled with low ttk weapoms.
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Edited by GMRcris: 6/6/2015 11:33:06 PMOh Jesus please don't tell your going to actually argue that low TTK shooter take as much skill as high TTK shooters. Almost every competitive FPS player will tell you, higher the TTK, more skill it takes to play it. If higher TTK didn't make a shooter harder/more skillful why is adding more health the fundamental basis for ramping up challenge even in PvE? If TTK didn't matter, why don't we just make Hive Majors 2-3 shot kills? TTK doesn't matter right? Let's make Vex Minotaurs 3 shot kills? Hell let's make bosses take less bullets to kill too since TTK doesn't matter right? TTK is one of the most basic principles in game design to ramp up difficulty lol, not just in shooters either, in any game.
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Why dont we make hive majors 2-3 shot kills? Well because its a completely different game mode, pve isnt the same thing as pvp. BTW my 365 blackhammer does kill them in 2-3 shots. The only difference between low and high ttk games is the amount of shooting that takes place. If I have to shoot you twice or one time I dont see how I am less skilled, remember you have to shoot me the same amount of times. One thing I will say, in high ttk games its easier to run away and escape. that can add an extra element. I like both types of games and find skill in both.
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Can you kill a sniper with your primary?
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Please don't tell your going to bring in snipers and shotguns into the argument with TTK cause that makes even less sense than you last response to me. You can't compare the TTK of primaries to weapons like snipers or shotguns simply because no matter what shooter you go to, their TTK remains the same.
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Can you kill a sniper with your primary? It's a yes or no question. If you can, you should have zero issue with Thorn. Don't tell me you can't compare them either. One is a weapon in your hand and the other is a weapon in your hand. If you want to keep dismissing all the other attributes of weapons and focus on a possible ttk if you're shooting in a vacuum, that's wonderful. Let me know when you're shooting in a vacuum.
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Edited by GMRcris: 6/7/2015 12:39:06 AMI'm here to discuss "all other attributes" of weapons. Mag size, reload speed, has no direct impact of what it takes to kill a target. Multiple targets? Sure but nothing else. Your comparing primaries with weapons like snipers, shotguns, which legit makes no sense and your excuse is my gripe with the game, TTK. Yet in every other shooter snipers kill in one headshot, some one body shot. Shotguns which are a one hit kill at close range in any FPS. The Thorn and TLW are so predominately used the average TTK in crucible has essentially take a huge plunge in it of itself. It doesn't help that shotguns still have absurd range, snipers aren't that hard to use and fusion rifles have been nerfed to be all by useless and probably forced to switch over to a shotty. If you played since the beta/alpha you would know the TTK in PvP has just been getting lower and lower. In the beta there were gunfights, that weren't over after exchanging 2-3 bullets. Now it's essentially turned into CoD where people are just running around 2-3 shot primary weapons, shotguns that one hit kill at close to mid range and snipers that probably take the most skill to use but even that's being generous.
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[quote]I'm here to discuss "all other attributes" of weapons. Mag size, reload speed, has no direct impact of what it takes to kill a target. Multiple targets? Sure but nothing else.[/quote] That statement is completely false. If you miss your shots and need to reload and I'm still shooting at you because I have a 42 round magazine, that's advantage me. [quote]Your comparing primaries with weapons like snipers, shotguns, which legit makes no sense and your excuse is my gripe with the game, TTK. Yet in every other shooter snipers kill in one headshot, some one body shot. Shotguns which are a one hit kill at close range in any FPS.[/quote] I'm comparing potential TTK, doesn't matter what weapon it is. Not sure what you're not grasping there. [quote]The Thorn and TLW are so predominately used the average TTK in crucible has essentially take a huge plunge in it of itself. It doesn't help that shotguns still have absurd range, snipers aren't that hard to use and fusion rifles have been nerfed to be all by useless and probably forced to switch over to a shotty.[/quote] Speculation, conjecture and flat out bulls**t. Fusion Rifles are just as stupid awesome as they've ever been, you just can't use them if you think otherwise. [quote]If you played since the beta/alpha you would know the TTK in PvP has just been getting lower and lower. In the beta there were gunfights, that weren't over after exchanging 2-3 bullets. Now it's essentially turned into CoD where people are just running around 2-3 shot primary weapons, shotguns that one hit kill at close to mid range and snipers that probably take the most skill to use but even that's being generous.[/quote] Then switch weapons and try to have fun instead of worrying what the hell anyone else uses. It's a freaking game.
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Edited by GMRcris: 6/7/2015 1:34:41 AM1. I'm discussing a scenario where both people are on the same playing field skill wise, if we're talking about top players, if one has Thorn and the other has let's say a "coiled hiss" the Thorn will win ever time if both are landing shots. That'll land 2 headshots and walk away, GG. Talking about missing or mag size it's just throwing pointless variables at the argument. 2. You can't hold primaries to the same standard of TTK as special weapons like shotguns or snipers, that's legit the dumbest thing I ever heard. If that was the case we might as well throw rockets and LMG's into the discussion lol. Actually funny thing is if we're talking Thorn, it actually can compete with snipers since it's a 2 shot potential is pretty high. Hell some LMG's don't kill in 2-3 bullets, which makes your argument even more amusing. 3. I don't even remember the last time I got killed by a fusion rifle. That's the funny thing. I think every time I ran into a fusion rifle user most they did was get me weak and I just killed them with TLW/Thorn or a shotgun. Almost everyone who I know used fusion rifles says they were destroyed and aren't as reliable killers at shotguns anymore. I don't or run into any good players who use fusion rifles period in crucible. 4. Lol cute. I know a lot of great players who stopped playing destiny once they realized how it was turning into a low TTK shooter. It just wasn't appealing anymore. Either went to do GB's in CoD, or went back to Halo or CS. I don't blame any of them.
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Every single one of your posts just vomits the same nonsense. "My friends say fusion rifles..." I'm speaking from experience and you're in Mr Rogers fantasy land.
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Edited by GMRcris: 6/7/2015 3:00:19 AMI could only imagine the fantasy land you live in where coil hiss competes with Thorn or TLW or where a fusion rifle competes with a perfectly rolled shotgun lol. If you have nothing semi intelligent say, or just feel like quoting random sections of what I post to skew to your piss poor argument, maybe it's best you say nothing at all kid lol.
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In your pretty spread sheet vacuum, my Coiled Hiss doesn't have 3rd Eye and it's not sighted on your face when you round the corner. In the actual game, I've shot you 3 times in the face before you can get 2 shots off. If you think ANY shotgun in the game is better than Plug One, Plan C or Pocket Infinity, you're batsh*t crazy.
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Edited by GMRcris: 6/7/2015 10:12:36 AMYeah your right I'll just stare at my pretty little spread sheet that I totally made. (Oh wait I didn't) You got me I'm just a tier whore lol. Actually I doubt you even know what a tier list is but that's okay, I'm sure the concept would be lost on you anyway. Yeah your right plug one, plan C and pocket infinity are way better than Matador 64, Party Crasher +1, etc... Lol that's why I see them these godly fusion rifles in Crucible 9/10 times right? Oh wait I don't, I barely see them actually and when I do they get wrecked pretty quickly and decisively.
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Do you have any idea how insanely far away Plan C and Plug One can OHK from? F***.
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Yeah sure back in the day when the spread on them was actually tight. Now? All they do is put you in s weakened state. You know of you actually think fusion rifles are that great, I really have to question your experience in Crucible as of late. Only thing I ever see special weapon wise is shotguns or snipers, that's legit it. Rarely do I come across fusion rifle users ever anymore. Just like the majority of people I run across in PvP run exotic hand cannons, I think I actually see run different primary than special weapons. Yeah idk when was the last time you played PvP cause fusion rifle users are few and far between at this point.
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Plan C and Plug One can OHK from just as far as they ever could. Try one sometime. [spoiler]Then stfu ;)[/spoiler]
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Lol, okay so why isn't everyone just use Plug One, Plan C, etc...since their obviously so great. Maybe you shouldn't be saying anything since your clearly very out of touch with the meta of Crucible ;)
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Lol, the most kills I've ever seen in PvP was 42 with Plug One. Sorry you're such a miserable turd. Have a nice life.
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Edited by GMRcris: 6/8/2015 2:04:45 AMLol, I dropped more kills just running the Suro/sniper back when that was the dominant primary. Sorry your clearly out of touch with PvP, and you spout out non sense all over the forums with semi decent punctuation and the clueless sheep flock to it. It's funny I always hear a lot of flack about these forums but tbh I didn't really care, long as Bungie saw actual feedback. Not first time or the only forum I post on so nothing new here. Anyway I'm sure my miserable life lol, will carry on just fine. I just hope for your sake I didn't get your panties in such a tight bunch you can't figure out how to Un-tie them. Since your so clearly blind to what the meta of Destiny PvP, I could only imagine the struggle it is for a little fella like you to even wake up and tie your shoes on properly. You have my condolences little buddy.
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They have no conceptual awareness of anything but raw numbers. I appreciate that sound point though.
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I would hounestly like to see other weapons buffed, Thorn is powerful, maybe we need more powerful choices. I dont feel like I need to use my Thorm to win, but I do see it in my enemies clutches often.
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And I'm assuming it's in their cold dead hands lol
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Often enough to keep me comming back to the crucible :)
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so true
