Lol. I don't think I've ever been on the other side of the fence with you on a topic before. They've given spread sheet numbers for TTK. Again, those numbers are two people firing at standing still non combative targets. -They do not factor in range, movement, etc. -They do not factor in the alternate perk variations available of other weapons. -They do not factor in individual skill with particular weapon classes. -They do not factor in different map layouts. I respect you and always enjoy your posts, so I ask with all do respect... Why weren't the Thorn users at the top of all the IB leaderboards? I didn't see anyone using them putting up 2+ k/d's each match. What I did see was them having good and bad games like everyone else. I hadn't used a scout in PvP since December. I switched to Hygiea Noblesse the last day and I'm pretty sure I wasn't outdone by many Thorns. If anything else is inferior and it's so OP, how am I able to consistently beat Thorn with Pulse Rifles, ARs and now Scouts? Thorn[i] is[/i] great, but it's great for a certain style of play. It's not a jack of all trades. Peace PB

The problem here is you're using personal experience as statistics. Obviously a skilled player will beat an unskilled thorn user. It's when two players of same skill go against each other. Kill times provide a glimpse of who has the advantage, so yes you could outmaneuver someone with thorn, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the thorn users weapon still kills faster than the other players weapon. It's this advantage that is the problem. Add this advantage to the other players inability to regen shields, and the ability to see where the other player ducks out to (with the tick damage numbers), and the above average range, and you'll see why it's considered overpowered. Do I think it should be absolutely neutered? Absolutely not. I just want it taken down a peg so it's on the same level as the scouts, pulses, and other hand cannons. The crucible would be way more diverse.