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8/6/2015 8:26:07 PM
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Alright, I'll give you a direct blunt answer. Its not on the fact that you have to "move on" Its not due to the fact that other games, namely many RPGS have done this to an extent, even Pokemon. Its due to 2 factors: -1. Starting everyone on an even playing field for the "reset" -2. Those year one weapons, mainly vannila, have perks that have potentially, little downsides and people clinging to them will not be encouraged to take stuff that has downsides. For ordeal 1, Yes as you know many MMOS like World of Warcraft or Everquest have done this, this is to make it so that everyone from the largest realm first seeking players/guilds and the ones that simply just want to pursue the content, have a fresh start to experenice the game in its entireity. Even Pokemon, has been doing this by means of "you have to play the game before you bring in your old guys" and guess what? [b]Even in a game like pokemon, many people end up breeding their older guys to make new stronger ones due to the expansion of new generations from the continuing games, its the equilevent of in WoW going in with the best of the past, but you eventually have to give it up[/b]. Everyone needs to start on the new field, because if you can just carry in the older gun at max power, well theres no point in seeking the content if you just have the old crap from before outdoing everything else. 2. Those perks, the deal is remember perks like Hammer Forged, Field Scout, etc? These perks have no downside, none at all. Even the exotics which have them, they will be tuned down in a couple ways on some like SUROS and MIDA respectively. The point is, if you can just keep using your fatebringer, blackhammer, etc, just keep pumping it up, year after year, beyond exotics, what exactly is the point of the new content if you will just end up coming back to the same old stuff you know is got these abilities when the newer raid and high end crucible gear wont? See the point? If everyone in year 1 has these powerful weapons to just carry through the longevity of the game, then there is really no point in continuing if everything say, what you or I have that has gotten a powerful shotgun like Found Verdict or a strong rocket launcher like hunger of Crota, then why would I need anything else? Yes we can still use Gally throughout the years, but all Gallys are the same, and all people can get access to it in a varity of ways, its just you know, rarer. But the point is, Legendaries at times can exceed the exotics, and if you had these all the time, then why would you even need to continue to play the game for anything beyond experience? Collection would be meaningless, we all have our swords or in this case guns, but just as in WoW people must pick up new blades and shed their armor for new adventures, we need to rethink our arsenals for stuff to being regulated to either trophies or the crucible. [i]But this isn't like WOW, the past raid stuff has no point! We dont even get transmog stuff to make it like our weapons![/i] Yes, in World of Warcraft, ever since late Cataclysm, a feature called transmog has existed, it was basically, all the neat looking older gear be it rare or epic (but not legendary like thunderfury), could be "reused" for a new purpose, that was the weapon itself while no longer viable as an active weapon, could be put into a mechanic known as void storage, as like a trophy storage mor or less, and then your active much stronger weapons and armor, could be made to take the form of this older gear. So your older gear is used as nothing more than clothing in this one, aka I had a dragon sword from Cata, but have a sword from Dreanor that though powerful, I dont like the look of it, so I transmoged it, this gave new life and reason to seek the older raid gear from time to time. We dont have that in Destiny, yet anyways. But a reskinned found verdict will never be as good as the old one, beyond just the crucible. But times also change and you cannot remain in the past forever. In a sense, yes, you need to move on, but change is a part of life. This is essentially a case of how anyone likewise arguing how they hate the changes coming to PVP and weapons like handcannons in general, well all I can say is: "you have no one to blame and be upset at but yourself" You shouldn't have just stuck to the same old fatebringer, blackhammer, and gally, dont be "upset that they nerfed your weapon" You should be upset that you decided to just stick to one thing and never try anything else. So don't be going into tilt in PVP or complaining how "unfair" PVE is when your weapon of choice is not effective. [i]Its better to be ultilized and otherwise accustomed to many different styles rather than one arch style, for anyone upset that handcannons, both exotic and legendary are changing, well its partly because they overpreformed, this is exactly why you may need to rethink your choices, all things need a pro and con, this is why the sense of balance exists, in both PVP and PVE. PVP everything needs a good zone and less effective zone. PVE, you can be powerful but not so powerful you end up breaking all the aspect of a challenge.[/i] But for anyone upset that their favorite weapons will be locked down to year 1, well in all truth the weapons will be back in other ways in new forms in the new content. I mean how many people took hopscotch pilgrim like the older SUPER POX VLO? A good amount I would assume But the days of Fatebringer, Found Verdict, Vision, BlackHammer, its all got to end. Because seriously, let me make it clear like this: [b]What game that lasts many years, would honestly make it so that you can get the strongest weapons, proven so powerful beyond again, those exotics from time to time, at a very low level comapred to the advanced content of the game, without so much as an sweat? Its not like we will ever be facing Atheon at level 40 and beyond unless the gear is just simply repurposed to be at the new maximum, but even then people would still be in the same pit of not using the new stuff? We all know that these first generation weapons have perks and stats that go beyond much of the other content currently there, so why on gods green earth would we need to use these new ones if the older ones have the better perks and were still ascendable? Simply, there would be no point[/b] Anyone complaining about this, is the real ignorant ones here. You are essentially wanting to carry your powerful stuff just so you can continue as you always have, removing any need or requriment, or even valid incentive for end game content be it PVE and PVP beyond just say, the challenge of PVP for killing Oryx. Thats not good, thats just dumb. Even pokemon which has let people do this for years, those same people have spent hours using their older guys, phased them out with the new generation prospects be it the new creatures, moves, and updated breeding possiblitites, all for the purpose to try and create stronger new pokemon with updated move possibilities. Pokemon fans have been doing this ever since gen 3 went to gen 4, the roster and moves have expanded, the battle system has changed long ago with physical and special splits, but the underlying math for stats and values has remained the same ever since then, and they hardly complained. And this is the pokemon community. World of Warcraft fans have dealt with this even longer, ever since 2007 with the burning crusade. So yeah, perhaps everyone needs to suck it up. "out with the old, in with the new." "Times change, those who fail to move on remain stagnated in the past" The prospect of new items phased in over older ones, its nothing new. Its purposes far outweigh the fact of just keeping the older ones. But if you don't like it, you also don't have to play. So say goodbye to your old legendaries, move forward with your exotics. Besides, lets be honest. Most of our builds actually revolve around the use of exotics. Move on, or get left behind. You can still fool around in the crucible with your old stuff, but honestly, the new stuff should be better. But hey, everyone cannot handle change that well, even when this is something that has proven to work time and time again in older games. Its no different here.
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  • If the developers come up with interesting game mechanics what weapons we use wouldn't be an issue. But in a game where difficulty is inflated with over leveled enemies and bosses that are bullet sponges players want to have the most powerful weapons available. And we shouldn't be punished for Bungies lack of forethought and planning. Not to mention the wishy washy design decisions. One minute the guns are obsolete with all dlc and the next it's yearly. FFS it's like Keystone Cops with this company.

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  • Interesting game mechanics? So I guess the fact they are putting in you know, objectives in the strikes and mixing them up with the 3 taken versions (Cerebereus, Dust Palace, Undying Mind) isn't enough? And difficulty inflated? I'm sorry, but Cmdr Chaos, by your take, I am guessing that either you really suck at PVE or just cannot get to level 34. Exactly what is hard these days on any nightfall with a burn modifier? Exactly what is hard when people just sit at the top of the nexus and snipe Sekrion? Exactly what is hard about Atheon even when back in the cap of 30, people could still mow him down easily with snipers and machine guns? Exactly what is hard about Crota considering most sadly cheesed him? Exactly how hard is Skolas anytime these days? Do you not somehow have the ability to get to a high enough level or are just impatient? You want the bosses to be put down to minimal health? How else can a shooter make a boss without some either high endurance or mechanic like Crota only being hurt by a sword? You want explosive barrels in the ring, because that just makes it more bland than one could say. The boss fights, like Atheon and Skolas, are actually just tests of patneince and otherwise fun when people dont rely soley on gally or cheesing, hell I purposely go striker on the nexus on any dragon strike nowadays just to knock people into the ring with a shoulder charge. I cannot stand cheesers. I don't like gimping challenges. Bungie toned down the health on Valus Tarruc, and even then, anyone packing a strong shotgun like lord of wolves or other maxed shotgun can help put down just about any boss. Bungie has made mistakes, thats a fact, lots of design lacking events in the early game (save for the vault of glass) and in the dark below. But they have added in a lot of content for the upcoming expansion. Its like, if actual mechanics being added in for strikes are not good enough now, then to people like you, it never will be. And your argument at the end is invalid, Blizzard has done this for years, over 8 years, with every Expansion with World of Warcraft, Nintendo has done it with Pokemon, yet no one in pokemon made a rant about how they are "forced to play the game to earn the right to transfer over their super powered guys from the pervious games" Even then, every pokemon game has a mechnaic with the badages, the higher level guys would hardly listen until they had all 8 badges. But guess what, no one complained then, you shouldnt complain in stuff like this when its the same situation, different genre. You have an exotic you like? Use that, thats all I can tell you, otherwise apparently the fact of [b]reforging still being present and different gun companies to give more diverse weapons[/b] flew right over you. Its not like its going to be impossible to reforge another hopscotch pilgrim and for all purposes, there will be strong PVE and PVP primaries. But you might as well complain, cause that solves everything right? At this point, this mentality, bungie isnt the one punishing you, you are only punishing yourself.

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  • [quote]Interesting game mechanics? So I guess the fact they are putting in you know, objectives in the strikes and mixing them up with the 3 taken versions (Cerebereus, Dust Palace, Undying Mind) isn't enough? [b]This is interesting. I heard about the new enemies and just read about the new put this here and drop the shield strike. I'm intrigued and will agree this sounds promising.[/b] And difficulty inflated? I'm sorry, but Cmdr Chaos, by your take, I am guessing that either you really suck at PVE or just cannot get to level 34. Exactly what is hard these days on any nightfall with a burn modifier? Exactly what is hard when people just sit at the top of the nexus and snipe Sekrion? Exactly what is hard about Atheon even when back in the cap of 30, people could still mow him down easily with snipers and machine guns? Exactly what is hard about Crota considering most sadly cheesed him? Exactly how hard is Skolas anytime these days? Do you not somehow have the ability to get to a high enough level or are just impatient? You want the bosses to be put down to minimal health? How else can a shooter make a boss without some either high endurance or mechanic like Crota only being hurt by a sword? You want explosive barrels in the ring, because that just makes it more bland than one could say. The boss fights, like Atheon and Skolas, are actually just tests of patneince and otherwise fun when people dont rely soley on gally or cheesing, hell I purposely go striker on the nexus on any dragon strike nowadays just to knock people into the ring with a shoulder charge. I cannot stand cheesers. I don't like gimping challenges. [b]I'm a card carrying member of the Forever 29 guild. I was forced through RNG to acquire what was affectionately known as "Iron Welfare" gear in order to make it to 30. I got my first Gjallarhorn at over a thousand hours in. I beat Atheon with a blue fusion rifle and TDYK with a Void walker. The Vault was the pinnacle of Destiny IMHO. I'm not impatient and I enjoy a puzzle challenge more than a bullet sponge. Atheon was fun. Until bugs were introduced after the teleports were randomized. Yes. The cheese made Crota a joke. It was fun doing it legit. I never understood cheesing the bridge to begin with. Always seemed longer on hard mode. IDK about barrels but things like rotating shields are cool. Shooting x to deploy y then taking control and destroying the boss sound fun. The sword was a cool idea. Taking down the shield should have been different and less depended on the players weapon. Or more indirect like the Atheon battle. I never liked the idea of a "Horde mode". Never liked it. But the etheric light was a great idea. [/b] Bungie toned down the health on Valus Tarruc, and even then, anyone packing a strong shotgun like lord of wolves or other maxed shotgun can help put down just about any boss. Bungie has made mistakes, thats a fact, lots of design lacking events in the early game (save for the vault of glass) and in the dark below. But they have added in a lot of content for the upcoming expansion. Its like, if actual mechanics being added in for strikes are not good enough now, then to people like you, it never will be. [b]Agreed. They have a hard sell for me. It's not impossible though. I'm coming around slowly. But I'm still on the fence. Story is the most important thing now. So how that is delivered is most important to my purchase decision. [/b] And your argument at the end is invalid, Blizzard has done this for years, over 8 years, with every Expansion with World of Warcraft, Nintendo has done it with Pokemon, yet no one in pokemon made a rant about how they are "forced to play the game to earn the right to transfer over their super powered guys from the pervious games" Even then, every pokemon game has a mechnaic with the badages, the higher level guys would hardly listen until they had all 8 badges. But guess what, no one complained then, you shouldnt complain in stuff like this when its the same situation, different genre. [b]I don't play those games but I understand your argument. I've always been a console gamer. Halo got me into the fps. Destiny is a mix of several different things so it's difficult to judge in comparison because as a jack of all trades blah blah blah. [/b] You have an exotic you like? Use that, thats all I can tell you, otherwise apparently the fact of [b]reforging still being present and different gun companies to give more diverse weapons[/b] flew right over you. [b]If the mechanics and story are interesting enough as along as my weapons kick ass in pve I could care less about re rolling or manufacturer. It's cool and adds depth but if it's the random gamble your motes mechanic in place today that's just padding playtime. [/b] Its not like its going to be impossible to reforge another hopscotch pilgrim and for all purposes, there will be strong PVE and PVP primaries. But you might as well complain, cause that solves everything right? [b]Well apparently the squeaky wheel...[/b] At this point, this mentality, bungie isnt the one punishing you, you are only punishing yourself.[/quote] [b]TL; DR: I've since read a bit more and will hold my final decision until I've seen how things will play out. Seems they're taking a step in the positive.[/b]

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  • Bungie should make people [b]Want[/b] to use new weapons, not make people [b]Have[/b] to.

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  • Technically, people don't [b] have to use new weapons, they are free to use the older weaker ones if they want, so there.[/b] Besides, they are going to make you want to use new ones,if you stick to your older ones, you will want to try the stronger ones when you notice your difficulty, also there are new powers and abilities on the various manufacrtured weapons that will differ, so there. The SUROS, Hakke, and Omilon weapons are not present in the older game and expansions, so what do you know, manufature incentives to try new stuff. Seems like Bungie is m[b]aking you want to use new weapons[/b] You don't have to, but anywhere outside of the regular crucible, they will suffer. Besides, [i]did it ever occur to everyone worried that perhaps there could be something better with these manufatured weapons? You will never be able to reforge nor customize the older stuff to the extent these new ones can, they may be held back by these older abilities.[/i] No did this fly over your head like many others? Try something new, you may like it. I've had my fill of Found Verdict and my Hunger of Crota, I love them, but aside from my exotics, well I'm looking at the SUROS and Hakke weapons, I want to see what they can do. Both points sunk, next arguement.

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  • Don't get me wrong the new weapons look cool as hell, and I'm sure the new abilities are going to be way better than the old ones. I just want more than cosmetic items to signify that I've been loyal to the game for a while. And the current weapons will be useless/way less powerful when compared to new weapon dps. Maybe they should do something that Team Fortress 2 did and give all year 1 Legendaries a Prefix like "Vintage Fatebringer" to make them feel rare at least.

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  • Rebuttal against OP 10/10

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  • TL;DR

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  • Make a difficult system for ascending old weapons and, even ascended, they only do 90% of max damage for current year weapons. (And correct any perks like they did with white nail, as needed) There, never OP, no power creep, and even a slight penalty for choosing to use legacy weapons. Simple

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  • 90% of max damage wouldnt make much of a difference. Even the gap for 331 to 365 doesnt matter that much, Even 365 reduced by 10% would come out approx 328.5, not much lower than 331. Its still in that range of for high end PVE and much more by PVP, there really is no difference. The gap is paractically insignificant. People would still use them because a gap of like 10 or 30 damage per shot or rather 1 to 3 in pvp lets say, will not make a radical difference. People would still be using fatebringer and vision of confluence and otherwise found verdict, word of crota, and hunger of crota, without much incentive to see the new content, PVE or PVP. So get used to the new stuff.

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  • Just a hypothetical. Bungie could find the sweet spot (70%, 80%, etc) whatever would make it a slight but notable penalty for using it. Then it's the players choice but stacked towards using new stuff. Solved with no harsh transition.

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  • Going down to 70% would start to be an issue when damage differences start to matter. Get used to new stuff, thats all I can tell you.

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  • Makes it a tough call, which would be good. Like I said, would have been an alternate solution that probably could have worked. It's their game, I accept it and i'll play it the way they set it up. It just could have been done (counter to the "it's an mmo" it had to be this way mentality). That's all

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  • Or maybe, just look at the new guns, its not like you can expect anything to be purely the same game after game. Its always going to change, and it will change more and more. You cannot stick with the same gear forever. Its like if someone got Street Fighter, yet only always played as Ryu, again and again and again, never trying out anyone else. Ryu you can always expect to be easy to understand and use, but when they find a focus with him, he wont change much. And thats not good, it kinda makes him stale to many. Its the same with legendaries in pokemon, the super powered guys, mainly the uber class like Mewtwo, Ho-oh, Lugia, Arceus, some of the strongest and highest base stat pokemon ever. Yet they can sweep the floor with most others, hardly any others have movesets and abilites to reach this status. But for all purposes, the legendaries are banned in most competitive play, because they are so powerful Its like, if you transfered in all your legendaries, take Mewtwo everywhere, what point is there in the game then? That reduces the enjoyment with nothing more than a pure baby mode to an already easy game anyone can beat. Part of the fun in that game is taking the old with the new, the older gen guys with the newer ones, and melding the available powers and abilities in a varity of ways to find a unique and good guy on your own, mainly with breeding, but its the same thing here, finding the right weapon that suits you, this is what the loot portion of the game is about. Take the loot portion out of destiny, why bother with new gear? See, thats why this entire thread is a joke. The game is about finding gear to personalize your style, this is why players are encouraged to find and eventually customize their own set to their preferences. But if you had the ability to do it all the time, just carry what you already have and set it in stone, never changing, then by right, you see someone using new weapons and abilities that may just outclass yours, even if you could ascend older gear, then these people by right cannot complain if a superior version of the vision of confluence or fatebringer were to appear. Its about finding loot, take away that aspect then what is destiny but just another shooter where you have your stuff and just say, "meh lets shoot stuff?" Finding stuff is part of the experience. Thats what an RPG of any design has.

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