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#feedback

Edited by AttilaTheNvn: 6/10/2016 5:50:36 AM
1132

Stop telling me to "move on" from my guns, please. (10 months later, STILL no response from Bungie)

Update- After [b]months[/b] of Bungie decidedly ignoring this issue, and this topic [i]specifically[/i], I completely stopped posting almost 2 months ago. However, I still feel like I can't let this discussion fade, just yet, given it's obvious effects on [i]future[/i] Destiny games. Everything I felt when writing this so many months ago STILL matters to me- despite the fact that I quit the game 6 months ago... So, I'm pretty sure it's still worth discussing. :P [quote]Bungie Weekly Update 12/04/2014: "In the months to come, your quest to become more powerful will have more avenues that lead to satisfaction. [b][u]The last thing we wanted was for you to look at your favorite gun or helmet and decide that it had become obsolete.[/u][/b] Since the reveal, we’ve read a lot of ideas for how this could have been done better. Your feedback is clear: [b][u]The time you have invested in your stuff should be respected[/u][/b]."[/quote] [quote](From Tyson Green via the 8-19 TTK stream, on the topic of Infusion) We're really trying to deliver on people being able to find things that they're excited about and keep them and customize their character[/quote] This isn't just about Bungie making design choices that harm the player; it's about them doing it [i]twice[/i], after explicitly stating they wouldn't do it [i]again[/i]. On top of that, it even goes against their own, outspoken design goals [i]for[/i] TTK, which is absurd. ______________________ (TL;DR at the end) Disclaimer! [spoiler]I'm very excited to acquire [i]new[/i] gear in TTK, and I'm in no way trying to discourage players from "moving on" to new gear. All I'm trying to argue is that players should have the [i][u]option[/u][/i] to do so, on [i]their[/i] terms. With that said...[/spoiler] I keep seeing arguments in [i]favor[/i] of Bungie's decision to phase out Year 1 weapons, generally based on people's experiences in games of the MMO variety. Now, I understand that from a purely MMO background, players don't see any issue with leaving old gear behind in favor of new, better gear, because that's how MMOs operate. However, Destiny is [i]not[/i] an MMO (at least from a combat perspective, which is what I'm basing my arguments on), and shouldn't be treated as such for a number of reasons. Main point-[quote]1. Weapons in Destiny have a [i]much[/i] more direct impact on player experience. Weapons in MMOs are little more than "stat sticks," with virtually no impact on gameplay other than increasing a player's DPS abilities; point, click, repeat. Destiny, on the other hand, is an FPS, and as such, choosing a weapon is infinitely more personal and important to players. Even if you only like [i]one[/i] class of weapon, there's still a ton of options to sort through; impact, fire rate, stability, perk set- even the [i]aesthetics[/i] of a weapon play a part in the overall [i]feel[/i] of a weapon. As such, it's a pretty shallow argument to tell players like me to "get used to it" when weapons become obsolete because "that's how MMOs work." This isn't an MMO, and my gun of choice is way more important to my experience than any DPS "stat stick" could ever be (sentimental value notwithstanding, of course).[/quote] Secondary point-[quote]2. Destiny's expansions have a bad habit of [i]replacing[/i] content, not [i]adding[/i]. And they happen MUCH more frequently than any MMO expansion; each new DLC essentially removes old gear from the game, replacing it with "better" gear [u]across the board[/u]. Why the hell should I pay for new gear that will be outdated in [i]a few months[/i]?! I payed for it, I grinded for it, I upgraded it, and I [i]kept it[/i]. This game is built on grinding for gear, and I've accepted that! But why would any sane gamer continue to grind if their efforts are [i]consistently[/i] invalidated? What's the point? Especially after the 2.0 patch effectively [i]already balanced Y1 gear to exist alongside Y2 gear in PvP.[/i] If the gear is "balanced" enough for PvP, than any claims the "Y1 gear is too powerful" are null and void, and PvE players are getting pissed on for no reason. Everything has been primed and readied to be included into the Y2 ecosystem, yet it's still left behind. The only reason this didn't bother me as much up to this point was because my old gear stayed useful, and became special because of its decreased availability; proof that I was here from the beginning. The idea of playing 'Destiny 3,' and still being able to pull out my Vanilla weapons in future battles is an [i]awesome[/i] prospect. It would give weight to all the adventures I've been on, all the awesome feats I've accomplished, and continually validate and distinguish all my efforts to [i]become legend[/i], as they say. :P[/quote] EDIT- I didn't touch on this in my initial post, and I absolutely should have; [quote]3. Most [i]console[/i] games don't go through major overhauls, because new mechanics and balance choices tend to get implemented in [i]sequels[/i]. An "expansion" in WoW is essentially the MMO equivalent of a [i]sequel[/i], not just an add-on. There is no "WoW 2," because Blizzard's "10 year plan" for the game was intended to exist in a single game economy for its entire lifespan. Because of that, it makes more sense for its expansions to overhaul the game in more impactful ways, because they take the place of proper sequels. "Destiny: The Taken King" is [i]not[/i] "Destiny 2." As big as it might be, it's still an add-on to Destiny "1," as it were, and I think people should view it as such. If Bungie wants to reset the entire game, and start from scratch, [i]so be it[/i], but they should do that [i]in the next game[/i].[/quote] TL;DR: 1. Destiny's weapons are [i]infinitely[/i] more meaningful to players than any MMO weapons could ever hope to be, in that they actually have a direct impact on how they play the game; they're more than just stat-increases. 2. And, seeing as how Bungie choses to remove old gear from the loot table with every DLC, thus shrinking gear options, the [i]only[/i] way to keep any sort of gear diversity in Destiny, as well as validate all the effort player's put into the game, would be to bring old gear forward, [i]period[/i]. ESPECIALLY considering that the 2.0 patch [i]already[/i] re-balanced Y1 gear to better match Y2 effectiveness, so what's the hold up? If it's "balanced" enough for PvP, then it's sure as Hell balanced enough for PvE! 3. "Expansions" in MMORPGs typically take the place of traditional [i]sequels[/i], which makes it more understandable that they would bring major overhauls to the game; TTK is definitely an [i]add-on[/i], not a sequel. Destiny [i]will[/i] have a proper [i]sequel[/i] in the future (confirmed in production), and if Bungie is determined to completely level the playing field for gear, that's fine, but they should do that [i]in the sequel[/i].

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  • Alright, I'll give you a direct blunt answer. Its not on the fact that you have to "move on" Its not due to the fact that other games, namely many RPGS have done this to an extent, even Pokemon. Its due to 2 factors: -1. Starting everyone on an even playing field for the "reset" -2. Those year one weapons, mainly vannila, have perks that have potentially, little downsides and people clinging to them will not be encouraged to take stuff that has downsides. For ordeal 1, Yes as you know many MMOS like World of Warcraft or Everquest have done this, this is to make it so that everyone from the largest realm first seeking players/guilds and the ones that simply just want to pursue the content, have a fresh start to experenice the game in its entireity. Even Pokemon, has been doing this by means of "you have to play the game before you bring in your old guys" and guess what? [b]Even in a game like pokemon, many people end up breeding their older guys to make new stronger ones due to the expansion of new generations from the continuing games, its the equilevent of in WoW going in with the best of the past, but you eventually have to give it up[/b]. Everyone needs to start on the new field, because if you can just carry in the older gun at max power, well theres no point in seeking the content if you just have the old crap from before outdoing everything else. 2. Those perks, the deal is remember perks like Hammer Forged, Field Scout, etc? These perks have no downside, none at all. Even the exotics which have them, they will be tuned down in a couple ways on some like SUROS and MIDA respectively. The point is, if you can just keep using your fatebringer, blackhammer, etc, just keep pumping it up, year after year, beyond exotics, what exactly is the point of the new content if you will just end up coming back to the same old stuff you know is got these abilities when the newer raid and high end crucible gear wont? See the point? If everyone in year 1 has these powerful weapons to just carry through the longevity of the game, then there is really no point in continuing if everything say, what you or I have that has gotten a powerful shotgun like Found Verdict or a strong rocket launcher like hunger of Crota, then why would I need anything else? Yes we can still use Gally throughout the years, but all Gallys are the same, and all people can get access to it in a varity of ways, its just you know, rarer. But the point is, Legendaries at times can exceed the exotics, and if you had these all the time, then why would you even need to continue to play the game for anything beyond experience? Collection would be meaningless, we all have our swords or in this case guns, but just as in WoW people must pick up new blades and shed their armor for new adventures, we need to rethink our arsenals for stuff to being regulated to either trophies or the crucible. [i]But this isn't like WOW, the past raid stuff has no point! We dont even get transmog stuff to make it like our weapons![/i] Yes, in World of Warcraft, ever since late Cataclysm, a feature called transmog has existed, it was basically, all the neat looking older gear be it rare or epic (but not legendary like thunderfury), could be "reused" for a new purpose, that was the weapon itself while no longer viable as an active weapon, could be put into a mechanic known as void storage, as like a trophy storage mor or less, and then your active much stronger weapons and armor, could be made to take the form of this older gear. So your older gear is used as nothing more than clothing in this one, aka I had a dragon sword from Cata, but have a sword from Dreanor that though powerful, I dont like the look of it, so I transmoged it, this gave new life and reason to seek the older raid gear from time to time. We dont have that in Destiny, yet anyways. But a reskinned found verdict will never be as good as the old one, beyond just the crucible. But times also change and you cannot remain in the past forever. In a sense, yes, you need to move on, but change is a part of life. This is essentially a case of how anyone likewise arguing how they hate the changes coming to PVP and weapons like handcannons in general, well all I can say is: "you have no one to blame and be upset at but yourself" You shouldn't have just stuck to the same old fatebringer, blackhammer, and gally, dont be "upset that they nerfed your weapon" You should be upset that you decided to just stick to one thing and never try anything else. So don't be going into tilt in PVP or complaining how "unfair" PVE is when your weapon of choice is not effective. [i]Its better to be ultilized and otherwise accustomed to many different styles rather than one arch style, for anyone upset that handcannons, both exotic and legendary are changing, well its partly because they overpreformed, this is exactly why you may need to rethink your choices, all things need a pro and con, this is why the sense of balance exists, in both PVP and PVE. PVP everything needs a good zone and less effective zone. PVE, you can be powerful but not so powerful you end up breaking all the aspect of a challenge.[/i] But for anyone upset that their favorite weapons will be locked down to year 1, well in all truth the weapons will be back in other ways in new forms in the new content. I mean how many people took hopscotch pilgrim like the older SUPER POX VLO? A good amount I would assume But the days of Fatebringer, Found Verdict, Vision, BlackHammer, its all got to end. Because seriously, let me make it clear like this: [b]What game that lasts many years, would honestly make it so that you can get the strongest weapons, proven so powerful beyond again, those exotics from time to time, at a very low level comapred to the advanced content of the game, without so much as an sweat? Its not like we will ever be facing Atheon at level 40 and beyond unless the gear is just simply repurposed to be at the new maximum, but even then people would still be in the same pit of not using the new stuff? We all know that these first generation weapons have perks and stats that go beyond much of the other content currently there, so why on gods green earth would we need to use these new ones if the older ones have the better perks and were still ascendable? Simply, there would be no point[/b] Anyone complaining about this, is the real ignorant ones here. You are essentially wanting to carry your powerful stuff just so you can continue as you always have, removing any need or requriment, or even valid incentive for end game content be it PVE and PVP beyond just say, the challenge of PVP for killing Oryx. Thats not good, thats just dumb. Even pokemon which has let people do this for years, those same people have spent hours using their older guys, phased them out with the new generation prospects be it the new creatures, moves, and updated breeding possiblitites, all for the purpose to try and create stronger new pokemon with updated move possibilities. Pokemon fans have been doing this ever since gen 3 went to gen 4, the roster and moves have expanded, the battle system has changed long ago with physical and special splits, but the underlying math for stats and values has remained the same ever since then, and they hardly complained. And this is the pokemon community. World of Warcraft fans have dealt with this even longer, ever since 2007 with the burning crusade. So yeah, perhaps everyone needs to suck it up. "out with the old, in with the new." "Times change, those who fail to move on remain stagnated in the past" The prospect of new items phased in over older ones, its nothing new. Its purposes far outweigh the fact of just keeping the older ones. But if you don't like it, you also don't have to play. So say goodbye to your old legendaries, move forward with your exotics. Besides, lets be honest. Most of our builds actually revolve around the use of exotics. Move on, or get left behind. You can still fool around in the crucible with your old stuff, but honestly, the new stuff should be better. But hey, everyone cannot handle change that well, even when this is something that has proven to work time and time again in older games. Its no different here.

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