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8/21/2015 3:04:27 PM
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The thing about this is that by the way the game is designed, gear was never meant to ascend in the first place. They allowed us to do it because they wanted to make everyone happy but that was never the plan. If you look at any actual mmo gear becomes obsolete with every new content release and destiny is just following that model. I'm not saying that destiny is an mmo nor am I saying that I agree with everything they're doing but if you kept using your same gear the entire way through the game then that pretty much nullifies any real progress and makes everything even more repetitive. If every new challenge they presented could just be answered by gally for the rest of the lifespan of destiny then I feel like the game itself doesn't progress which means the community won't progress. If there's no progression is there really a reason to continue making destiny if it's just gonna be the same thing for the next ten years?
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So if the gear does not ascend, maybe Bungie need to take the time to fix the broken ones AT THE TIME IT IS RELEVANT. I am pretty peeved about Nechrochasm. Great concept for acquiring the weapon. Horrible reward. Promises it would be fixed. They finally get around to fixing it two DLCs later, and at the exact same time render the fixed version worthless. It is fine to leave the old gear behind, but only after we at least had working version and got to enjoy it.
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I don't agree with the timing but I feel that repeatedly boosting up old gear to new levels is more of a crutch than a fix and lets be honest, HoW needed a crutch. If ttk is as good as they say it is let it speak for itself. If it's not it'll flop and we'll move on to the next popular game that comes along.
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Gear ascension worked perfectly fine in HoW, and everybody loved it. There were people going back and replaying (replayability ftw!) old content to get items that they hadn't gotten before because they were useful again. Why would they want to completely undo the only progress they've made so far towards keeping old endgame content relevant? The new HoW endgame weapons also all sucked ass, PoE was boring af, and the new exotics and elemental primaries couldn't be obtained except by playing boring af PoE. None of this was too big of a deal, since old gear could be ascended to be usable, but that's not going to happen this time around. We could very easily end up with HoW level shitgear, and this time we won't be able to ascend other gear to use instead.
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Ok. It worked for HoW. Let's say it works for ttk. Do you think it's gonna work 5 years from now? Do you think the game is gonna get better if you can use your old shit for the entire series? No it's not. If they keep adjusting the game for us eventually bungie is gonna get lazy because they won't have to make new anything. And I'm sorry if this everything they've done so far is bungie trying their hardest, I don't want to see them lazy.
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Yes, I do think the game can get better using the same gear for its entire lifespan. I don't particularly care that we JUST get new gear; I'd like it if we just for sure got better gear that was worth leaving old gear behind for, and still have old weapons to fall back on if the new gear sucks, and new content that was fun to play even with old gear. Trying their hardest would be keeping old weapons and content relevant instead of leaving it behind. Lazy is scrapping everything so that it doesn't have to be taken into consideration at all.
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This.
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Quit telling people how a game should be played when you are the one who feels this way.
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There's no hit or miss or doubts with regards to how effective giving players a choice can be. So yes, it would still work for Year 5 and up to Year 10 as well. All you are doing is giving people the option, and more options is always preferable to few. As far as new weapons, its stupidly easy to keep coming up with brand new ideas for weapons and I'm actually rather disappointed that they are taking this route. What you have now is a system which already encourages being lazy, because they can essentially tweak or recycle old concepts for weapons and just simply resell them as "new" with a higher max damage stat. Keeping everything that is old relevant going forward advocates a need to get more creative with weapon designs and concepts to expand and create new exciting ideas to interest people.
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By simply increasing the power level of older gear that would allow them to do less because even if everything new flops bungie will have something to fall back on. And as critical as this community is they wouldn't get away with repeatedly reskinning and retweaking weapons. They've put themselves in a situation where they have no choice but to deliver and I don't know about you but I feel that's great for the game because they'll have to continually improve and raise the bar. Not just tell us to play this mode to get this item to let you use the same gear you beat every other boss with to beat this boss.
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And yet both the Dark Below and House of Wolves is evidence. The community did already complain about how the "new" weapons for both DLCs were just re-skinned nonsense of what was already there. Case in point! Vanilla Destiny: "The Devil You Know" Dark Below: "The Devil You Don't Know" Your logic doesn't really seem all that thought out. I mean to be frank, you sound as though you're just kinda re-hashing what they say. Like I've said, that kind of mentality really doesn't help anyone. The reason why giving people the choice can never go wrong is because despite you or I think, we're both being catered to. Neither of us is being shown favortism. But if you go with the current setup where that choice is just removed altogether and it becomes a point of forcing players to use the new stuff going forward, then you'll obviously alienate a large portion of your customers who don't share the same opinion. To make it more simpler~ Option 1 angers many while others remain unaffected Option 2 makes everyone happy and doesn't negatively impact anyone.
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Whether you agree with my logic or not stems off from the initial point I made. The gear was never designed to be around forever. And making a comparison between content between dlc and a full on expansion is a little misguided. I know most people don't know that there is a legitimate difference between the two but it's difficult to make an accurate assessment of what is being brought to the table in terms of content. Simply put dlc or add-ons do exactly that, the add on to what is available without necessarily altering game mechanisms which is what we see with like the call of duty franchise or most console games where they put in a few maps and maybe a few missions and weapons. An expansion is basically a reimagining of the current content and building up from that. You'll see those in mmo's or even a game like warframe where they not only add on content to the game but they add in or alter game mechanics as a whole which is what is happening with ttk. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't necessarily agree with what they're doing but I do have a general understanding of why the old gear is being left behind. Bottom line is the old gear doesn't fit in line with the new direction destiny is going in. Old gear doesn't have the same perks and abilities the new gear has. The new weapons for the most part are being classified into individual themes based off vendors the old aren't. Everything they are bringing into the fold when it comes to gear with this expansion is not available on the old gear which is what I mean by it wasn't designed to last the duration of the game. Even if they did bring the gear to the new damage and armor levels they still wouldn't have the same capabilities that the new gear has so it's being left behind. It's that simple.
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Edited by Bizzerker_Bauer: 8/22/2015 3:22:36 AM[quote]And making a comparison between content between dlc and a full on expansion[/quote]Uh, TDB and HoW were both called expansions by Bungie. That's why they came in the expansion pass, and it's also why people are so upset that after these two "expansions" were so tragically awful that they're now coming out and asking for double the price for the first "major expansions for real this time guys". You're also just obviously wrong on every point about weapons. There's no reason not to let us upgrade old weapons. None. If the new weapons are truly better then people will use them and the fact that we were able to ascend old weapons won't be a problem. If the new weapons AREN'T better, which they likely won't be, then we get to use the old weapons that were actually good. This way Bungie has to step up to the plate with new weapons designs instead of just dumping in some shit weapons with random faction-only perks replacing old ones.
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Edited by Malphisto: 8/22/2015 3:20:24 AMThere are flaws in your argument, however. 1: Both Dark Below and House of Wolves are advertised and listed as Expansion I and Expansion II. As such, they are both considered "mandatory" as they lock off players from actual game content. DLC is optional by virtue of its definition, content intended to enhance or add onto what is already present. But never considered mandatory. Of course, the distinction between what is DLC and what is an Expansion is just beating around the bush and ultimately holds no real value to the subject at hand. New weapons/armor were added, shop vendors had their inventories replaced and old content was replaced with new. That is the focus of conversation here, please do not go off topic with me. 2: Unless you work at Bungie, there is no way for you to be certain one way or another that the old gear was never intended to stick around forever. That is nothing more than speculation on your part, and there are just as many others out there which argue the opposite. 3: I don't agree with your logic based on pure common sense, nothing else. Given the situation, presented to a group of intellectuals diagnosing the scenario, it is easily determined that one option results in there being a split between differing opinions while the other option breeds cohesion of ideals. Hence, the two options I explained already. Logic will always dictate what is right or wrong. 4: There is nothing simple about it, on the contrary. If the new gear has different perks then that makes even less sense for them to retire the old stuff. That is the idea, after all, to populate the game with weapons and armor that seek to diversify the gaming experience. If you could elaborate upon why you feel the old content doesn't fit in line with the new, I'd love to hear it. Personally, I'm willing to wager you have the makings of a personal opinion regarding this matter but you haven't fully explored your thoughts on it. My advice? You would benefit from a change in perspective. Its simple enough to do, all you need is to erase your current opinions, step back and then assume the role of an outsider looking inward. Question each thing, and find the answers. Then questions what you discover, and once you reach the end of the rabbit hole you will arrive on the other side far more enlightened and well off for it. Its a technique I find quite useful.
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I like how you assume things, like many (MANY) people do! You know the saying about assume, don't you? I really don't understand how you can make such a definitive statement, unless you are one of the original designers or developer. Even if you are one of those two, then it would mean that you are one of the dissimulators; I can say this because of all the statements that have been made on reddit, the news/updates, on interviews and on the pre-release videos, where it was clearly stated that your armor and even your weapons define you. How can you be defined if you are forced to surrender, or at minimum, give up using items. While things can, and do go obsolete, somethings don't; admittedly they may need to be fixed or worked on, but let me use a real life example. Let's look at automobiles, which would you think would get more attention? A spanking new Chevrolet, or say a 1957 Chevrolet that is still in good condition? Now let's say you are a real motor head, and you are really into cars; which engine and drive train would you be more likely to work on, and once done, which do you think would be the fastest and most powerful? So, back to the subject at hand; I do agree about needing progression, but progression doesn't always mean that you need new, sometimes, just fixing up the old can be just as good, or even possibly better.
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Ok let's go by your logic and apply it to something closer to what we're dealing with. If you take just about any standard issue assault rifle and body armor from 1957 and compare it to the standard issue for 2015. The older gear can definitely get the job done but the current gear is specifically designed to perform better given the current conditions and circumstances. It may look nice and in certain aspects it may even out perform the current standards in certain areas but does it make it better overall? Not in the slightest. I'm not saying it's all positive what they're doing I'm just saying it's not all bad either.
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Ok, as you say, using your example, my 45 cal pistol is just over 20 years old, so just because they have newer weapons, that makes my 45 obsolete and so I should trade it in for a newer one? While I somewhat agree with what you are saying, it is my opinion that what they are doing is wrong! While I'm not saying that it is all bad, when it comes to weapons, and if they are changing the power of the weapons, then we should be able to increase the power of our current weapons to make them relevant; but if these new weapons are more powerful, then why are they nerfing the older ones? That doesn't make sense and I cannot see no logic behind it, because they told use that things were overpowered, that is why they were modifying them. So... do I need to go on here and expand my logic?
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That's the thing. They aren't changing the power of weapons. They're changing the power of the enemies and giving us new tools to combat these new enemies. The older gear isn't getting nerfed it's just not getting buffed. They're saying what you have now is not strong enough to fight this new stronger enemy so you have to get stronger. And it's not just weapon damage and armor defense being put on the new gear they're are new perks new item types that are being applied too so even if they did boost up the damage it's still less effective so there's no point in it.
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Edited by Kadeim: 8/21/2015 5:23:40 PMWell, you have your thoughts, and you know mine. We disagree on some points, and, well... But I would like to thank you for your considerate responses and input. I do really appreciate it that rather than (like some) just ranting, you articulated your points very well, using a decent point of view and civility. Edit: You say they (older weapons) aren't getting nerf, when they are, that is what the 2.0 updates are doing.
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Same here. And believe me when I say I agree with a lot of what you're saying I just understand why bungie is doing it.
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I actually 100% agree with you. It's all about progression, there can be none if people are still holding onto their old weapons and armour. What you said about the gally is spot on !! It literally is the only gun I use too take down a boss.
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Thank you. I love my gally but I don't think it should be the primary option forever.
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I think the better answer would be for Bungie to design encounters that relied upon more than bullet sponges. Different weapons should be useful in different situations, for the life of the game. A weapon I got on day one of Destiny should be just as effective in its role as a weapon I get just before Destiny 2 releases. Now, if there is never going to be a Destiny 2, and all we ever get is expansions to Destiny, then we would have a situation similar to classic MMOs. Though Bungie did state in the pre-launch hype that they enter people to be able to carry over the gear and weapons they love through the 10 year cycle of Destiny. That being the case, it is a legitimate complaint that Bungie is not providing the product they advertised.
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You can still use your older gear just like in any loot based game. All they have done is make gear of a higher level. That doesn't make it any less useful than it is now, they just didn't make it more useful.
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So all the work/time I spent getting the weapons/armor I wanted is going to negated in TTK. That will make me RETHINK about continuing with the game. Simple!
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How is what you've done up to this point being negated? If you want to use your level 20 gear the rest of the game you can. It's not being taken away from you nor is it becoming weaker than it is currently. They're just giving us gear of a higher level.
