[b]TLDR[/b] (too long; didn't read):
[i]There are people who, believe it or not, claim that Hunters' both subclasses are [b]under-powered[/b] in PvP. Some even claim that Titans' Striker class is [b]over-powered[/b] in PvP. This topic will give you statistics that suggests that both cases are false. The source of information can be found [url=http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population]here[/url].[/i]
[b]Note 1:[/b]
[i]This thread has been edited to be less flamatory and more informative. Whoever wants a copy of the original can simply send me a PM.[/i]
[b]Note 2:[/b]
[i]This topic is focused on Bladedancers, Gunslingers and Strikers and therefor dedicate very little attention to the other subclasses. Some people are wondering both if and how Sunsingers super effects the rest of the stats, and the answer is yes. Due to Sunsingers super giving the player a significant reduction in ability cool-down, Sunsingers are at the top of both the Melee Kill Count (PvP) table and the Grenade Kill Count (PvP) table- this does however not mean that both their melee attacks and grenades are not great (without the super active) in PvP.
Some people also wonder how Defender titans can have super kills due to their super being passive. I don't have the actual facts on this one, but me and other forumers are theorising that kills under the effect of either Weapons of Light, Blessings of Light or Armor of Light (i.e. kills inside the Ward of Dawn) count towards the Defender's Super Kill Count (PvP) table.[/i]
[u]_________________________________________________[/u]
Like a Gunslinger with Golden Gun I am here to burst your bubbles of misconception and delusion, with facts derived from statistics. Bladedancers and Gunslingers (from here on referred to simply as "Hunters) are not under-powered, and Strikers are not over-powered. Now I know that some of you will dispute the statistics' significance- and by all means do so... But if you have nothing but anecdotes to offer, chances are slim that anyone will care about what you have to say.
Let's start by clearing out the demographics in the crucible, across all platforms (Xbox 360, Xbox One, Playstation 3, Playstation 4):
34.2% currently play as Hunters
33.6% currently play as Warlocks
32.2% currently play as Titans
As you can see, no class is over-represented, thus can we deduce that none of the following stats will be skewed to a point of being completely unreliable or misrepresentative (think margine of error and natural breaks in population).
Top 100 players (by class)
1st place: Hunters at 36.1%
2nd place: Titans at 32.6%
3rd place: Warlocks at 31.3%
Congratulations Hunters! You are the Kings and Queens of the hill.
Top 10,000 players (the average Joe, by class)
1st place: Hunters at 35.3%
2nd place: Warlocks at 32.7%
3rd place: Titans at 32%
Congratulations Hunters! Yet again you're at the top.
Let's break down the subclass demographics:
[u]Hunters[/u] (34.2% of the population)
51% Bladedancers
49% Gunslingers
[u]Titans[/u] (32.2% of the population)
47% Defenders
53% Strikers
[u]Warlocks[/u] (33.6% of the population)
62% Sunsingers
38% Voidwalkers
Let's have a look at the AVERAGE KDR:
[u]Hunters[/u]
Bladedancers > 1
Gunslingers > 1
[u]Titans[/u]
Defender < 1
Striker < 1
[u]Warlocks[/u]
Voidwalker < 1
Sunsinger < 1
As most of you know, the current (since shortly prior to HoW) PvP meta game consists of an exotic handcannon and a shotgun:
1) Handcannons
1,466,551,647 kills
2) Shotguns
1,441,875,593 kills
3) Melee
1,082,244,380 kills
A common complaint is how Titans Shoulder charge is over-powered, so let's see who's the worst perpetraitor in the Crucible.
1) Sunsingers
281,325,978 (26% of) melee kills (as previously mentioned, effected by their super- but still lethal outside)
2) Strikers
193,989,846 (17.93% of) melee kills (Shoulder charge is not the standard melee kill, but does count towards melee kills)
3) Bladedancer
175,413,331 melee kills (Arcblade does not count toward melee kills)
4) Voidwalker 14.84%
5) Defender 13.65%
6) Gunslinger 11.37% (throwing what?)
To some players the Shoulder charge is a real problem, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one who has cursed the range and weight behind a warlock's air slap. Hmm. Gunslingers though, thumbs up if you know how to throw your knife.
Now onto the real problem. Arcblade and Golden Gun needs a buff? Fist of Havoc needs a nerf?
1) Bladedancer at 207,596,562 kills (21.73%)
2) Gunslinger at 179,520,390 kills (18.79%)
3) Striker at 178,059,836 kills (18.64%)
4) Sunsinger at 15.71%
5) Voidwalker at 12.60%
6) Defender 12.52%
So, now that we've established that Hunters get the absolute highest amount of kills with their supers, I think it's safe to say that neither Hunter super needs adjustments towards the better. As a part of class balancing the Hunter supers are very different from the other supers; they offer little damage income reduction (i.e. shields and health regeneration- EXOTICS EXCLUDED FOR VALID REASONS). In short, a hunter can get great rewards at great risks.
Striker Titans are harder to stop. Can they be countered? Absolutely, but not in the traditional manner: you have to kill them before they close the gap to you. Waiting around the corner? Well... If someone want to use their super to do what a traditional shotgun can do just as good... Isn't that their loss?
Anyways, the last myth to debunk: Hunter grenades are lackluster (under-powered), Magnetic grenades and Lightning grenades are OP:
1) Sunsinger at 173,643,166 grenade kills (yet again, affected by the Sunsingers' super)
2) Bladedancer at 129,281,096 grenade kills
3) Gunslinger at 104,629,378 grenade kills
4) Voidwalker at 98,384,135 grenade kills
5) Striker at 90,707,260 grenade kills
6) Defender at 67,964,843 grenade kills
The name of the game ends with "bolt". Magnetic grenade isn't a bad grenade, it's just that few people are willing to sacrifice an offensive super to get plasma grenades....... I mean, Magnetic grenades. Of course. Lightning grenades? They're strong, but won't OHK anyone... So unless you're simply arrogant, stubborn or unattentive, you shouldn't find them game breakingly good (move side-ways, don't try to run away from it- it has the reach of Thor's wrath). Also, have you ever tried to stick an ice cone to the side of a wall? Yes, these babies have a passion for getting stuck in awkward angles.
Tripmine... If you consider this a bad grenade then I feel very comfortable to have you know that it's most likely an issue with the operator. This baby can be hidden in tight areas and take out entire herds confused tourists. Seriously, it's not a bad grenade.
[b]Source of information[/b]:
Destiny Tracker, downloaded at 12:15 PM on the 27th of August 2015, from http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population
[b]Authors note[/b]:
Statistics on Destiny Tracker are updated every 15 minutes, and thus people will find differing numbers while cross checking the source.
Did I miss anything? Grammar or spelling mistake? Are there other issues related to this topic that needs to be raised? Post a comment below!
EDIT:
[i]On a completely unrelated note. THANK YOU BUNGIE for the great video over at Game Informer. I absolutely loved the return of humour and honesty. You really nailed the description of the community being more like shareholders than hobby gamers. I strongly recommend anyone reading this to look up the Game Informer video (released on the 26th).[/i]
-
Signed
-
Post vids of 3 man trip mines because i dont get them but i do get 3-5 kills with lighting nads
-
Edited by Talk2MeToner: 9/1/2015 12:26:43 AMThank you I put this data up before for the same reason but didn't go in depth explaining cuz I thought people could read charts and realize that sunsinger super inflated melee and grenade kills stat but nope people are too dumb and think hunters need a buff like idiots when they have dominated crucible since day 1 and were clearly made with pvp in mind
-
did u play oblivion?
-
Edited by Shadows802: 8/31/2015 7:10:36 PMStraight kills isn't much because a larger base or a base that plays more would cause it to be skewed out proportion hence why they use per 1000 people in statistics when comparing different countries. Nor does this take into account personal choice beyond that of meta.
-
Rebuttal :) This will be correcting / normalizing much of your stats based on class / subclass population. Assume 1000 users. I just think it is easier to use concrete numbers instead of percentages. For context. [b]Total population by class and then subclass breakdown[/b] [u]Hunters (342)[/u] : Bladedancer (174) : Gunslinger (168) [u]Titans (322)[/u] : Striker (171) : Defender (151) [u]Warlocks (336)[/u] : Sunsinger (208) : Voidwalker (128) [b]Subclass ranked by population tiers[/b] Tier 1: Sunsinger (208) Tier 2: Bladedancer (174), Striker (171), Gunslinger (168) Tier 3: Defender (151) Tier 4: Voidwalker (128) [b]# of players in top 100 by class[/b] Hunters (36) Titans (33) Warlocks (31) [b]delta of expected top 100 class population, based on total population[/b] Hunters (+2) : Expected 34, was 36 Titans (+1) : Expected 32, was 33 Warlocks (-3) : Expected 34, was 31 And so the first fallacy of your interpretation of your stats is given. To say ANYONE is clearly "the king/queen of the hill" is a bit unfair. The interesting takeaway? Hunters and Titans are slightly over-represented in the top 100 compared to what we would expect them to be. Warlocks are under-represented. The biggest question everyone should be asking is: What stat is being used to determine "Top 100"? Top 100 in what? Kills, KD, hours played, orbs, score? [b]Melee Stat Important Notes to Remember[/b] Before we dive into this interesting tidbit, I think it is important to clarify some things. This is based on my research / reading. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken. - Gunslinger Throwing Knives do not count as melee kills in PvP - Striker Shoulder Charge does count as a melee kill in PvP - Sunsinger and Voidwalker both have ranged melee hits - Bladedancer has a ranged melee hit as well, but not quite the range of the Warlock melees All of these points are super important... and you'll see why after the stats. [b]% of all PvP melee kills ranked by subclass[/b] Sunsinger (26%) Striker (18%) Bladedancer (16%) Voidwalker (15%) Defender (14%) Gunslinger (11%) [b]ranked delta of expected PvP melee kill %, based on total population[/b] Sunsinger (+5%) : Expected 21%, was 26% Voidwalker: (+2%) : Expected 13%, was 15% Striker (+1%) : Expected 17%, was 18% Bladedancer (-1%) : Expected 17%, was 16% Defender: (-1%) : Expected 15%, was 14% Gunslinger: (-6%) : Expected 17%, was 11% Speaking in terms of non-super range and damage, I would expect Voidwalker and Sunsinger melee effectiveness to be relatively the same, and as a whole, be at the top of the list. As previously mentioned, we expect the Sunsinger to be slightly higher because of the additional effectiveness their super adds to melee. So it would appear that the range of a warlock melee (alone) gives it about a +2% boost (using Voidwalker as a baseline). The increased damage and survivability of a Sunsinger's super seems to then account for about an extra 3% above and beyond the Voidwalker's. And then it gets crazy. Defender, Gunslinger, and Striker (if you ignore shoulder charge) should theoretically be close to each other... if you ignore other meta like play style (strikers more up close). But we don't really see this. We see some crazy stuff. Stuff that sticks out to me? - Shoulder charge accounting for ONLY a +2% over Defender. Not nearly the impact I thought it would have. - Bladedancers (despite the extra range) are about equally effective with their melee as defenders. Probably play style. - Gunslinger having a -6% !!! I have a couple of hypothesis. The first main one is that Gunslingers lose their throwing knife if they misjudge a melee. This probably makes them extra conservative with it. But -6%??? Holy cow! [b]% of all Super kills ranked by subclass[/b] Bladedancer (22%) Gunslinger (19%) Striker (19%) Sunsinger (16%) Voidwalker (13%) Defender (13%) [b]ranked delta of expected Super kill %, based on total population[/b] Bladedancer (+5%) : Expected 17%, was 22% Gunslinger: (+2%) : Expected 17%, was 19% Striker (+2%) : Expected 17%, was 19% Voidwalker: (+/- 0%) : Expected 13%, was 13% Defender: (-2%) : Expected 15%, was 13% Sunsinger (-5%) : Expected 21%, was 16% Now this is interesting, and again, goes totally against some of the inferred truths by the OP. In short: - Bladedancers have the most effective PvP super in the game. Way over performing. Not much of a surprise here. That Hungering perk is absolutely the culprit if you ask me. - Interestingly, Gunslinger and Striker supers are equally effective, and slightly over performing compared to others. In long: WTF is up with Sunsingers? The -5% doesn't surprise me. Their Super is typically used sparingly in situations (revive and then reign hell). But what IS surprising... is the fact that they are -5% for Super effectiveness, but yet, we somehow accredited the extra melee effectiveness to their Super being active. Is it just me or is something not adding up? [b]My Overall Conclusions[/b] - The OP needs a lesson in how to interpret statistics. Many of their inferences are easily debunked.
-
Hunters are primadonna bitches
-
Your stats are misleading. While I don't argue being correct they are irrelevant. The reason FoP is op is because they can't die while in animation. It is also an immediate cancellation of others supers. This is going to be very interesting as well with the new subclasses on the way. It will be very disappointing if the new warlock and Titan super can get smashed out immediately.
-
The issue I have raised is that this data goes back to the beginning and is not an accurate representation of the current state. As I have said narrowing the scope to the release of HoW would be better since it compares apples to apples.
-
Far too much effort has went into this lol, chill out it's a game. Try have some fun lol everyone's too serious on this.
-
You liar... [spoiler];)[/spoiler] [url=http://www.example.com]Shave Babies All Day[/url]
-
Thank you. Also by chance does that top 100 include PvP? Also what is the Top 10? Where do the classes lie in the top 100?
-
All I want it's golden gun to be more accurate to where you aim. I don't want the huge aim assist I just want the shots to go where I shoot not where the game thinks I wanted to shoot.
-
Bladedancer still need an orb buff. And im willing to bet stormcaller will too.
-
Getting sick of posts like this. Just because more people use certain subclasses, does not mean they are overpowered. A hunter can't enter a punching fight with a sunsinger coz of that stupid flame shield.... Bladedance a striker titan??? Nah...titan just hulk smashes and destroys everything around it. Warlock self Rez with praxic Fire on??? Everyone gna get grenaded. All classes have pros and cons. None are any more powerful that the others. They just work differently. Before anyone cries about bladedancer getting more kills than any other super, ask yourself how many more ppl main bd than ss or st... Stats are misleading...popularity is not an indicator of strength.
-
Is M'aiq done talking?
-
Edited by orangei2: 8/30/2015 5:11:32 PMReally just look at the simplicity of the two. Titans can press a button, get an easy kill. Hunters press a button, become a sitting duck for a while, charge headfirst into the fray, an risk getting killed. It physically takes more effort to use a blade dancer, but that's not really the point. There are two factors in the "skill" associated with supers: potential and vulnerability. Fist of Havoc takes little effort to use, meaning you can just pop it out in a moments notice without really worrying about being killed in the process, on the other hand, once you activate it, that's it. Looking at just the base of both supers (disregarding the modifiers in the skill trees) you clearly see that you have more control, and therefore, more potential with the blade dancer, however, a blade dancer can be brought down pretty quickly if the other team has half a brain to shoot at you. In simpler terms, with more potential, comes more vulnerability. This ratio is basically bungie's way of evening out the supers, so truly, Fist of Havoc takes less skill, but that's really irrelevant for the competitive gamers, because most people should know generally when to use supers, and how they can be effective. To sum up (I know this is a lot) all that really matters is your play style; if you want to be a little more risky, but more effective, choose the bladedancer, if you want an easy to use, but restrictive super, use the titan. When it all comes down to it though, the gameplay is more focused on guns anyways, you get significantly more kills with a shotgun than with a super. So let's stop dwelling on the slight imperfections in balance of the smaller aspects of crucible.
-
Dude...I was just shown this by a fellow titan. Thank you for putting in the effort to look all this up. So great to see proof in stats to shut up hunters or players who whine about shoulder charge cause they just don't get it.
-
-
Can someone link dis gameinformer video, wanna make sure we're on the same page
-
[quote]The name of the game ends in 'Bolt'[/quote]
-
Gunslinger=Flaming golden p*nis slinger Just gonna leave that here :3
-
If anything the Hunters class's are way under powered in PVE, but I always felt that was the class thing, the Titans striker is under powered in PVE, can't even kill a Yellow bar, same with Warlocks, And the Bubble is amazing with Iron Harvest, along with the Sun Singers Burn. So if anything PVE is where the hunter's fail, and PVP is amazing for hunters.
-
PvP Hunter can essentially point his super to several people. Titan in PvP is a damn hidden gem. Super when not looking to use it is amazing.
-
Spend more time playing and less time writing. I am not reading all that.
-
I love you XD but serious your information is good