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Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by 传说中的 Ghost: 8/28/2015 11:37:38 AM
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By popular crybaby demand

[b]TLDR[/b] (too long; didn't read): [i]There are people who, believe it or not, claim that Hunters' both subclasses are [b]under-powered[/b] in PvP. Some even claim that Titans' Striker class is [b]over-powered[/b] in PvP. This topic will give you statistics that suggests that both cases are false. The source of information can be found [url=http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population]here[/url].[/i] [b]Note 1:[/b] [i]This thread has been edited to be less flamatory and more informative. Whoever wants a copy of the original can simply send me a PM.[/i] [b]Note 2:[/b] [i]This topic is focused on Bladedancers, Gunslingers and Strikers and therefor dedicate very little attention to the other subclasses. Some people are wondering both if and how Sunsingers super effects the rest of the stats, and the answer is yes. Due to Sunsingers super giving the player a significant reduction in ability cool-down, Sunsingers are at the top of both the Melee Kill Count (PvP) table and the Grenade Kill Count (PvP) table- this does however not mean that both their melee attacks and grenades are not great (without the super active) in PvP. Some people also wonder how Defender titans can have super kills due to their super being passive. I don't have the actual facts on this one, but me and other forumers are theorising that kills under the effect of either Weapons of Light, Blessings of Light or Armor of Light (i.e. kills inside the Ward of Dawn) count towards the Defender's Super Kill Count (PvP) table.[/i] [u]_________________________________________________[/u] Like a Gunslinger with Golden Gun I am here to burst your bubbles of misconception and delusion, with facts derived from statistics. Bladedancers and Gunslingers (from here on referred to simply as "Hunters) are not under-powered, and Strikers are not over-powered. Now I know that some of you will dispute the statistics' significance- and by all means do so... But if you have nothing but anecdotes to offer, chances are slim that anyone will care about what you have to say. Let's start by clearing out the demographics in the crucible, across all platforms (Xbox 360, Xbox One, Playstation 3, Playstation 4): 34.2% currently play as Hunters 33.6% currently play as Warlocks 32.2% currently play as Titans As you can see, no class is over-represented, thus can we deduce that none of the following stats will be skewed to a point of being completely unreliable or misrepresentative (think margine of error and natural breaks in population). Top 100 players (by class) 1st place: Hunters at 36.1% 2nd place: Titans at 32.6% 3rd place: Warlocks at 31.3% Congratulations Hunters! You are the Kings and Queens of the hill. Top 10,000 players (the average Joe, by class) 1st place: Hunters at 35.3% 2nd place: Warlocks at 32.7% 3rd place: Titans at 32% Congratulations Hunters! Yet again you're at the top. Let's break down the subclass demographics: [u]Hunters[/u] (34.2% of the population) 51% Bladedancers 49% Gunslingers [u]Titans[/u] (32.2% of the population) 47% Defenders 53% Strikers [u]Warlocks[/u] (33.6% of the population) 62% Sunsingers 38% Voidwalkers Let's have a look at the AVERAGE KDR: [u]Hunters[/u] Bladedancers > 1 Gunslingers > 1 [u]Titans[/u] Defender < 1 Striker < 1 [u]Warlocks[/u] Voidwalker < 1 Sunsinger < 1 As most of you know, the current (since shortly prior to HoW) PvP meta game consists of an exotic handcannon and a shotgun: 1) Handcannons 1,466,551,647 kills 2) Shotguns 1,441,875,593 kills 3) Melee 1,082,244,380 kills A common complaint is how Titans Shoulder charge is over-powered, so let's see who's the worst perpetraitor in the Crucible. 1) Sunsingers 281,325,978 (26% of) melee kills (as previously mentioned, effected by their super- but still lethal outside) 2) Strikers 193,989,846 (17.93% of) melee kills (Shoulder charge is not the standard melee kill, but does count towards melee kills) 3) Bladedancer 175,413,331 melee kills (Arcblade does not count toward melee kills) 4) Voidwalker 14.84% 5) Defender 13.65% 6) Gunslinger 11.37% (throwing what?) To some players the Shoulder charge is a real problem, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one who has cursed the range and weight behind a warlock's air slap. Hmm. Gunslingers though, thumbs up if you know how to throw your knife. Now onto the real problem. Arcblade and Golden Gun needs a buff? Fist of Havoc needs a nerf? 1) Bladedancer at 207,596,562 kills (21.73%) 2) Gunslinger at 179,520,390 kills (18.79%) 3) Striker at 178,059,836 kills (18.64%) 4) Sunsinger at 15.71% 5) Voidwalker at 12.60% 6) Defender 12.52% So, now that we've established that Hunters get the absolute highest amount of kills with their supers, I think it's safe to say that neither Hunter super needs adjustments towards the better. As a part of class balancing the Hunter supers are very different from the other supers; they offer little damage income reduction (i.e. shields and health regeneration- EXOTICS EXCLUDED FOR VALID REASONS). In short, a hunter can get great rewards at great risks. Striker Titans are harder to stop. Can they be countered? Absolutely, but not in the traditional manner: you have to kill them before they close the gap to you. Waiting around the corner? Well... If someone want to use their super to do what a traditional shotgun can do just as good... Isn't that their loss? Anyways, the last myth to debunk: Hunter grenades are lackluster (under-powered), Magnetic grenades and Lightning grenades are OP: 1) Sunsinger at 173,643,166 grenade kills (yet again, affected by the Sunsingers' super) 2) Bladedancer at 129,281,096 grenade kills 3) Gunslinger at 104,629,378 grenade kills 4) Voidwalker at 98,384,135 grenade kills 5) Striker at 90,707,260 grenade kills 6) Defender at 67,964,843 grenade kills The name of the game ends with "bolt". Magnetic grenade isn't a bad grenade, it's just that few people are willing to sacrifice an offensive super to get plasma grenades....... I mean, Magnetic grenades. Of course. Lightning grenades? They're strong, but won't OHK anyone... So unless you're simply arrogant, stubborn or unattentive, you shouldn't find them game breakingly good (move side-ways, don't try to run away from it- it has the reach of Thor's wrath). Also, have you ever tried to stick an ice cone to the side of a wall? Yes, these babies have a passion for getting stuck in awkward angles. Tripmine... If you consider this a bad grenade then I feel very comfortable to have you know that it's most likely an issue with the operator. This baby can be hidden in tight areas and take out entire herds confused tourists. Seriously, it's not a bad grenade. [b]Source of information[/b]: Destiny Tracker, downloaded at 12:15 PM on the 27th of August 2015, from http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population [b]Authors note[/b]: Statistics on Destiny Tracker are updated every 15 minutes, and thus people will find differing numbers while cross checking the source. Did I miss anything? Grammar or spelling mistake? Are there other issues related to this topic that needs to be raised? Post a comment below! EDIT: [i]On a completely unrelated note. THANK YOU BUNGIE for the great video over at Game Informer. I absolutely loved the return of humour and honesty. You really nailed the description of the community being more like shareholders than hobby gamers. I strongly recommend anyone reading this to look up the Game Informer video (released on the 26th).[/i]

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  • Trip Mine dose not one shot anyone i have never been killed by one while i have full health so saying titans grenades don't one shot is not an argument

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    • Edited by That Zexi Guy: 8/28/2015 4:08:01 PM
      I think the people that complain Hunters are underpowered are the ones who don't know how to use them and get shut down during their super every time. I believe everyone in, let's say, the top 5% of PvP players knows how to shut down a Bladedancer or a Golden Gun user, and, at the very least, trade with them. I've played PvP long enough to know that Golden Gun and Bladedancer is very effective against people who are not particularly skilled at PvP. Against skilled opponents, you will only get 1, maybe 2 kills with your Hunter super. In fact, using ANY super against skilled opponents will probably only get you 1 or 2 free skills. However, you are more than likely going to get 0 kills against skilled opponents with either super. Sunsinger also fits in this category. Even if both teams have the same high skill level, FoH or Nova is more likely to get you 1 kill against a full team than Bladedancer will. Golden Gun is more debatable since it is long range, but you have a gigantic flaming beacon over your head that screams "SNIPE ME". I personally find Warlocks more overpowered than Hunters. My K/D on my Warlock is much higher than my other classes.

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      • Edited by DA4CEIZ2REAL: 8/28/2015 4:18:59 PM
        I have had the game for 9 months and have only used a Warlock and have only used Voidwalker in Crucible. I only use Sunsinger for Nightfall because of resurrection. I am part of that very small minority of people and, yet, Destiny Tracker (PS4) has my kill streak (38), highest game score (9995), and most kills in a match (49) stats in the top 1%. (Stats were all in Control) I don't really know how much that says, but, in my opinion, I think it says a lot. It doesn't matter who you are and what you choose to fight with, learn to adapt to the enviroment and the people you are fighting against and also WITH. Use your team to your advantage, if you can. I do feel some Titans or Hunters have some OP stuff, but it is only an assumption since I have never created any of those characters and I have learned ways around Blade Dancers and such. If people spent less time crying and more time figuring the stuff out then maybe you would find more success. [spoiler]Thanks For Reading :)[/spoiler]

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      • In black ops 3 i saw everyone useing a sparrow so she must be OP EVERYONES USEING IT !!!!!! ..... Lol kid hunters are easy to play there not the best .....

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      • And this confirms I'm a filthy casual.

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      • Don't care, as long as you PvP crybabies don't effect PvE

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      • Edited by Prof Sheitbag: 8/28/2015 3:30:51 PM
        Excellent post

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      • I bet your favorite lipstick is penis. I'm sure it goes well with your complexion.

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        • Edited by bobswerski: 8/28/2015 2:00:07 PM
          There is simply no freaking way a sane person could claim [i]bladedancers[/i] are underpowered. Utterly preposterous. I get killed all the f-ing time trying to throw a Nova bomb but arc bladers can chase me into the air and laugh off anything short of a rocket to the face.

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          • Not sure about PVP, but in PVE both hunter subclasses are kinda, 'meh'.

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            • Sorry to burst your bubble but this is the same community that said Hunters would lose in an all out war against Titans and Warlocks. So clearly, they think Hunters are weak. Also the numbers you gave us aren't ideal because none of that specifies how many of those players main hunters. We have people with one of each and they'll contribute to that data whether or not they main hunters.

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            • Lol you take absolut numbers when it means absolutely nothing. Of course there are gonna be more super kills from Hunters if more people use this class. This isn't even remotely close to an accurate scientific study, your post is biaised in a dozen ways.

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              • Most of the tryhards run HC/arcblade Hunter anyway.

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              • As a guardian who identifies as a Hunter let me just apologize for my whining brethren. Nothing is OP right now except the weapon Meta (but since that is available to every class, all I can complain about is how the Meta forces me to play a certain way).

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                • Link to Game Informer vid?

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                  • While I mostly agree with you, you are falling into the same trap that lots of "pure numbers" people do. It doesn't tell the whole story. I don't mind dying to golden gun. I get a warning. They aren't invulnerable. They have to aim. I get pissed off dying to fist of panic. No warning. They can bullet sponge during. No skill required. There is no counter. Sunsingers melee % is skewed. Twice as many players use Sunsinger than Voidwalker. So yes, the totals for melee are also skewed. Your own numbers show the issue with shoulder charge. Despite the disparity in popularity and apparent overall effectiveness and lack of range on the melee, the only class with more melee kills is the Sunsinger.... which by the way accounts for over 2/3rds of the warlock PvPers. One you figure that all in, it begs the question: how can such an unrepresented population account for such a high % in a particular category? Unless it is overly effective in that category? The issue isn't effectiveness. The issue is the feeling of cheapness, frustration, lack of skill needed, and the lack of counters. There is much more to it than just numbers. There is an emotional and psychological aspect.

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                    • What

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                    • I love you.

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                      • [quote][b]TLDR[/b] (too long; didn't read): [i]There are people who, believe it or not, claim that Hunters' both subclasses are [b]under-powered[/b] in PvP. Some even claim that Titans' Striker class is [b]over-powered[/b] in PvP. This topic will give you statistics that suggests that both cases are false. The source of information can be found [url=http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population]here[/url].[/i] [b]Note 1:[/b] [i]This thread has been edited to be less flamatory and more informative. Whoever wants a copy of the original can simply send me a PM.[/i] [b]Note 2:[/b] [i]This topic is focused on Bladedancers, Gunslingers and Strikers and therefor dedicate very little attention to the other subclasses. Some people are wondering both if and how Sunsingers super effects the rest of the stats, and the answer is yes. Due to Sunsingers super giving the player a significant reduction in ability cool-down, Sunsingers are at the top of both the Melee Kill Count (PvP) table and the Grenade Kill Count (PvP) table- this does however not mean that both their melee attacks and grenades are not great (without the super active) in PvP. Some people also wonder how Defender titans can have super kills due to their super being passive. I don't have the actual facts on this one, but me and other forumers are theorising that kills under the effect of either Weapons of Light, Blessings of Light or Armor of Light (i.e. kills inside the Ward of Dawn) count towards the Defender's Super Kill Count (PvP) table.[/i] [u]_________________________________________________[/u] Like a Gunslinger with Golden Gun I am here to burst your bubbles of misconception and delusion, with facts derived from statistics. Bladedancers and Gunslingers (from here on referred to simply as "Hunters) are not under-powered, and Strikers are not over-powered. Now I know that some of you will dispute the statistics' significance- and by all means do so... But if you have nothing but anecdotes to offer, chances are slim that anyone will care about what you have to say. Let's start by clearing out the demographics in the crucible, across all platforms (Xbox 360, Xbox One, Playstation 3, Playstation 4): 34.2% currently play as Hunters 33.6% currently play as Warlocks 32.2% currently play as Titans As you can see, no class is over-represented, thus can we deduce that none of the following stats will be skewed to a point of being completely unreliable or misrepresentative (think margine of error and natural breaks in population). Top 100 players (by class) 1st place: Hunters at 36.1% 2nd place: Titans at 32.6% 3rd place: Warlocks at 31.3% Congratulations Hunters! You are the Kings and Queens of the hill. Top 10,000 players (the average Joe, by class) 1st place: Hunters at 35.3% 2nd place: Warlocks at 32.7% 3rd place: Titans at 32% Congratulations Hunters! Yet again you're at the top. Let's break down the subclass demographics: [u]Hunters[/u] (34.2% of the population) 51% Bladedancers 49% Gunslingers [u]Titans[/u] (32.2% of the population) 47% Defenders 53% Strikers [u]Warlocks[/u] (33.6% of the population) 62% Sunsingers 38% Voidwalkers Let's have a look at the AVERAGE KDR: [u]Hunters[/u] Bladedancers > 1 Gunslingers > 1 [u]Titans[/u] Defender < 1 Striker < 1 [u]Warlocks[/u] Voidwalker < 1 Sunsinger < 1 As most of you know, the current (since shortly prior to HoW) PvP meta game consists of an exotic handcannon and a shotgun: 1) Handcannons 1,466,551,647 kills 2) Shotguns 1,441,875,593 kills 3) Melee 1,082,244,380 kills A common complaint is how Titans Shoulder charge is over-powered, so let's see who's the worst perpetraitor in the Crucible. 1) Sunsingers 281,325,978 (26% of) melee kills (as previously mentioned, effected by their super- but still lethal outside) 2) Strikers 193,989,846 (17.93% of) melee kills (Shoulder charge is not the standard melee kill, but does count towards melee kills) 3) Bladedancer 175,413,331 melee kills (Arcblade does not count toward melee kills) 4) Voidwalker 14.84% 5) Defender 13.65% 6) Gunslinger 11.37% (throwing what?) To some players the Shoulder charge is a real problem, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one who has cursed the range and weight behind a warlock's air slap. Hmm. Gunslingers though, thumbs up if you know how to throw your knife. Now onto the real problem. Arcblade and Golden Gun needs a buff? Fist of Havoc needs a nerf? 1) Bladedancer at 207,596,562 kills (21.73%) 2) Gunslinger at 179,520,390 kills (18.79%) 3) Striker at 178,059,836 kills (18.64%) 4) Sunsinger at 15.71% 5) Voidwalker at 12.60% 6) Defender 12.52% So, now that we've established that Hunters get the absolute highest amount of kills with their supers, I think it's safe to say that neither Hunter super needs adjustments towards the better. As a part of class balancing the Hunter supers are very different from the other supers; they offer little damage income reduction (i.e. shields and health regeneration- EXOTICS EXCLUDED FOR VALID REASONS). In short, a hunter can get great rewards at great risks. Striker Titans are harder to stop. Can they be countered? Absolutely, but not in the traditional manner: you have to kill them before they close the gap to you. Waiting around the corner? Well... If someone want to use their super to do what a traditional shotgun can do just as good... Isn't that their loss? Anyways, the last myth to debunk: Hunter grenades are lackluster (under-powered), Magnetic grenades and Lightning grenades are OP: 1) Sunsinger at 173,643,166 grenade kills (yet again, affected by the Sunsingers' super) 2) Bladedancer at 129,281,096 grenade kills 3) Gunslinger at 104,629,378 grenade kills 4) Voidwalker at 98,384,135 grenade kills 5) Striker at 90,707,260 grenade kills 6) Defender at 67,964,843 grenade kills The name of the game ends with "bolt". Magnetic grenade isn't a bad grenade, it's just that few people are willing to sacrifice an offensive super to get plasma grenades....... I mean, Magnetic grenades. Of course. Lightning grenades? They're strong, but won't OHK anyone... So unless you're simply arrogant, stubborn or unattentive, you shouldn't find them game breakingly good (move side-ways, don't try to run away from it- it has the reach of Thor's wrath). Also, have you ever tried to stick an ice cone to the side of a wall? Yes, these babies have a passion for getting stuck in awkward angles. Tripmine... If you consider this a bad grenade then I feel very comfortable to have you know that it's most likely an issue with the operator. This baby can be hidden in tight areas and take out entire herds confused tourists. Seriously, it's not a bad grenade. [b]Source of information[/b]: Destiny Tracker, downloaded at 12:15 PM on the 27th of August 2015, from http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population [b]Authors note[/b]: Statistics on Destiny Tracker are updated every 15 minutes, and thus people will find differing numbers while cross checking the source. Did I miss anything? Grammar or spelling mistake? Are there other issues related to this topic that needs to be raised? Post a comment below! EDIT: [i]On a completely unrelated note. THANK YOU BUNGIE for the great video over at Game Informer. I absolutely loved the return of humour and honesty. You really nailed the description of the community being more like shareholders than hobby gamers. I strongly recommend anyone reading this to look up the Game Informer video (released on the 26th).[/i][/quote]

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                      • Your analysis is lazy.

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                        • Edited by KamakaZ: 8/28/2015 10:57:17 AM
                          Hi Maiq! [quote]"Maiq saw a mud crab the other day. Horrible creatures..." -Maiq the Liar[/quote] What are you doing in destiny?

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                          • I agree, however I have a few concerns. One of my concerns with your analysis is that there is no correlation of the players True Skill number for any given class. For example, do the hunters at the top of the arcblade category have a higher True Skill than the defender titans at the bottom? Given that many players have three characters, one of each class, it is easy to assume that a certain number of people will select their class/subclass based upon a pre-determined meta. As you eluded to, the current meta is an exotic handcannon/shotgun. Combine that with a choice of mobility options and super abilities, then one can start to see why certain builds are higher or lower on the leaderboards.

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                            • Edited by hexxem: 8/28/2015 2:34:21 PM
                              I can't believe how few of us walk the Void. Nova Bomb for life son! Easily my favorite subclass. [i]~ Vykings[/i]

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                            • Blade dancer is the best PVP subclass in the game , the only way to counter that super if you're lucky enough is with a shotgun, another super , a very strong primary or a sniper , the subclasses unique perks such as QuickDraw give anyone running the class a huge advantage , especially with snipers . you just can't go wrong with blade dancer. the worst thing about the subclass is its melee , but then that is better than the Titans ( excluding shoulder charge )

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                              • Bump

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                              • I wish you nerds would leave shit alone. This is turning for the worse just like fantasy sports. You remember back in the day when you drafted Marino because he was your fave and not based off his TD/INT ratio against the AFC East on Monday night games in temperatures below 70 degrees? Please start using your powers for something real...like when am I winning the lottery. Thanks.

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