[b]TLDR[/b] (too long; didn't read):
[i]There are people who, believe it or not, claim that Hunters' both subclasses are [b]under-powered[/b] in PvP. Some even claim that Titans' Striker class is [b]over-powered[/b] in PvP. This topic will give you statistics that suggests that both cases are false. The source of information can be found [url=http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population]here[/url].[/i]
[b]Note 1:[/b]
[i]This thread has been edited to be less flamatory and more informative. Whoever wants a copy of the original can simply send me a PM.[/i]
[b]Note 2:[/b]
[i]This topic is focused on Bladedancers, Gunslingers and Strikers and therefor dedicate very little attention to the other subclasses. Some people are wondering both if and how Sunsingers super effects the rest of the stats, and the answer is yes. Due to Sunsingers super giving the player a significant reduction in ability cool-down, Sunsingers are at the top of both the Melee Kill Count (PvP) table and the Grenade Kill Count (PvP) table- this does however not mean that both their melee attacks and grenades are not great (without the super active) in PvP.
Some people also wonder how Defender titans can have super kills due to their super being passive. I don't have the actual facts on this one, but me and other forumers are theorising that kills under the effect of either Weapons of Light, Blessings of Light or Armor of Light (i.e. kills inside the Ward of Dawn) count towards the Defender's Super Kill Count (PvP) table.[/i]
[u]_________________________________________________[/u]
Like a Gunslinger with Golden Gun I am here to burst your bubbles of misconception and delusion, with facts derived from statistics. Bladedancers and Gunslingers (from here on referred to simply as "Hunters) are not under-powered, and Strikers are not over-powered. Now I know that some of you will dispute the statistics' significance- and by all means do so... But if you have nothing but anecdotes to offer, chances are slim that anyone will care about what you have to say.
Let's start by clearing out the demographics in the crucible, across all platforms (Xbox 360, Xbox One, Playstation 3, Playstation 4):
34.2% currently play as Hunters
33.6% currently play as Warlocks
32.2% currently play as Titans
As you can see, no class is over-represented, thus can we deduce that none of the following stats will be skewed to a point of being completely unreliable or misrepresentative (think margine of error and natural breaks in population).
Top 100 players (by class)
1st place: Hunters at 36.1%
2nd place: Titans at 32.6%
3rd place: Warlocks at 31.3%
Congratulations Hunters! You are the Kings and Queens of the hill.
Top 10,000 players (the average Joe, by class)
1st place: Hunters at 35.3%
2nd place: Warlocks at 32.7%
3rd place: Titans at 32%
Congratulations Hunters! Yet again you're at the top.
Let's break down the subclass demographics:
[u]Hunters[/u] (34.2% of the population)
51% Bladedancers
49% Gunslingers
[u]Titans[/u] (32.2% of the population)
47% Defenders
53% Strikers
[u]Warlocks[/u] (33.6% of the population)
62% Sunsingers
38% Voidwalkers
Let's have a look at the AVERAGE KDR:
[u]Hunters[/u]
Bladedancers > 1
Gunslingers > 1
[u]Titans[/u]
Defender < 1
Striker < 1
[u]Warlocks[/u]
Voidwalker < 1
Sunsinger < 1
As most of you know, the current (since shortly prior to HoW) PvP meta game consists of an exotic handcannon and a shotgun:
1) Handcannons
1,466,551,647 kills
2) Shotguns
1,441,875,593 kills
3) Melee
1,082,244,380 kills
A common complaint is how Titans Shoulder charge is over-powered, so let's see who's the worst perpetraitor in the Crucible.
1) Sunsingers
281,325,978 (26% of) melee kills (as previously mentioned, effected by their super- but still lethal outside)
2) Strikers
193,989,846 (17.93% of) melee kills (Shoulder charge is not the standard melee kill, but does count towards melee kills)
3) Bladedancer
175,413,331 melee kills (Arcblade does not count toward melee kills)
4) Voidwalker 14.84%
5) Defender 13.65%
6) Gunslinger 11.37% (throwing what?)
To some players the Shoulder charge is a real problem, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one who has cursed the range and weight behind a warlock's air slap. Hmm. Gunslingers though, thumbs up if you know how to throw your knife.
Now onto the real problem. Arcblade and Golden Gun needs a buff? Fist of Havoc needs a nerf?
1) Bladedancer at 207,596,562 kills (21.73%)
2) Gunslinger at 179,520,390 kills (18.79%)
3) Striker at 178,059,836 kills (18.64%)
4) Sunsinger at 15.71%
5) Voidwalker at 12.60%
6) Defender 12.52%
So, now that we've established that Hunters get the absolute highest amount of kills with their supers, I think it's safe to say that neither Hunter super needs adjustments towards the better. As a part of class balancing the Hunter supers are very different from the other supers; they offer little damage income reduction (i.e. shields and health regeneration- EXOTICS EXCLUDED FOR VALID REASONS). In short, a hunter can get great rewards at great risks.
Striker Titans are harder to stop. Can they be countered? Absolutely, but not in the traditional manner: you have to kill them before they close the gap to you. Waiting around the corner? Well... If someone want to use their super to do what a traditional shotgun can do just as good... Isn't that their loss?
Anyways, the last myth to debunk: Hunter grenades are lackluster (under-powered), Magnetic grenades and Lightning grenades are OP:
1) Sunsinger at 173,643,166 grenade kills (yet again, affected by the Sunsingers' super)
2) Bladedancer at 129,281,096 grenade kills
3) Gunslinger at 104,629,378 grenade kills
4) Voidwalker at 98,384,135 grenade kills
5) Striker at 90,707,260 grenade kills
6) Defender at 67,964,843 grenade kills
The name of the game ends with "bolt". Magnetic grenade isn't a bad grenade, it's just that few people are willing to sacrifice an offensive super to get plasma grenades....... I mean, Magnetic grenades. Of course. Lightning grenades? They're strong, but won't OHK anyone... So unless you're simply arrogant, stubborn or unattentive, you shouldn't find them game breakingly good (move side-ways, don't try to run away from it- it has the reach of Thor's wrath). Also, have you ever tried to stick an ice cone to the side of a wall? Yes, these babies have a passion for getting stuck in awkward angles.
Tripmine... If you consider this a bad grenade then I feel very comfortable to have you know that it's most likely an issue with the operator. This baby can be hidden in tight areas and take out entire herds confused tourists. Seriously, it's not a bad grenade.
[b]Source of information[/b]:
Destiny Tracker, downloaded at 12:15 PM on the 27th of August 2015, from http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population
[b]Authors note[/b]:
Statistics on Destiny Tracker are updated every 15 minutes, and thus people will find differing numbers while cross checking the source.
Did I miss anything? Grammar or spelling mistake? Are there other issues related to this topic that needs to be raised? Post a comment below!
EDIT:
[i]On a completely unrelated note. THANK YOU BUNGIE for the great video over at Game Informer. I absolutely loved the return of humour and honesty. You really nailed the description of the community being more like shareholders than hobby gamers. I strongly recommend anyone reading this to look up the Game Informer video (released on the 26th).[/i]
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I wish you nerds would leave shit alone. This is turning for the worse just like fantasy sports. You remember back in the day when you drafted Marino because he was your fave and not based off his TD/INT ratio against the AFC East on Monday night games in temperatures below 70 degrees? Please start using your powers for something real...like when am I winning the lottery. Thanks.
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i wonder why bladedancers have the most kills duh... oh wait the entire class is designed for the sole purpose of pvp. quick draw is one of the best perks in the game and hungering blade makes you neigh invincible you spend every bullet in the clip trying to kill them only to get killed by their insane lunge and then all your progress goes to hell cos they heal after they kill you
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This thing still going strong? Congrats!
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Burn baby burn
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warlock master race
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what does all this mean?
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I common about supers on PvE, Nova Bomb and Blade Dancer in particular, Nova Bomb does not do nearly as much damage as a super should, and Arc Blade doesn't gen enough orbs...kill 15 acolyte? How does four orbs sound?
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Edited by JaykoBlanco: 8/28/2015 7:24:41 AM1. The 3%more hunters actually would skew stats when you're talking about billions of kills and measuring them down to the single digits. 2. Average KDR greater or lower than 1? For how specific the rest of your post is, seems strange to not include details on that point. Leads me to believe Gunslingers and Bladedancers are around 1.01, and everyone else is .99 3. Otherwise good post. People are stupid, hunters definitely have the most kill potential, so anyone who knows what they're doing will excel. They do have the highest risk though.
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The only real complaint I have against Titans is the inability to counter a Fist of Havoc. Bladedancers, Defender Titans, Sunsingers, and especially Gunslingers can reasonably be brought down, yet I can never seem to take down a FoH Titan, even with point-blank shotgun range.
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Can't wait for the blink nerf where all the bladedancers go sunsinger and abuse viking funeral, sniper melees and the ram. Bungie have so very little clue about their own game, its almost hilarious... almost.
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Edited by TronCat: 8/28/2015 9:00:52 AMOh look another circlejerk thread which provides pure statistics and offers no interpretation of said statistics.
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Bumps
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Lol gunslinger melee is at the bottom. But throwing knives are awesome
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I have been informed that I'm needed here
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I don't care to be honest. I have one of each character and use a different play style for each. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses depending on what you are using them for. I play for myself, not to please others and if anyone is moaning about it then maybe they should look at how they play, not other people.
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Titan is OP... Said no one ever. Like really wtf??
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Edited by Gerhans89: 8/28/2015 10:16:53 AMThank you! This thread proves that the balance between the classes and subclasses is absolutely perfect. Anyone can get good with any class. This is the best feat of Destiny and everybody b*tching about "oh Titan is OP, oh Warlock is OP or, oh Hunter is OP" needs to stop caring and get good... I get annoyed by being killed by bladedancers and golden gunners, seeing defender bubbles on control points, having my killstreak ended by a striker fist of havoc, having my team wiped by a single nova bomb or getting killed by a fireborn sunsinger I just shot but that's just 'cause I'm playing against good players... STOP WHINING
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Well written.
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Cant we alll agree that destiny is just a big pile of cheesy shiet. Every class has cheese.
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You did miss something: Look at the repartition sunsingers/warlock. It's compeltely unbalanced. That means that the other stats (like gfrenade kills and co) should be ponderated to more realistically reflect the population.that means Voidwalker are 'underrepresented in your stats, while sunsingers are overrepresented. Also: regarding super uses: - Defender super kills: HOW do they count that? A bubble doesn't kill...is it kills while bubble is active? - Sunsinger super kills: super is based on grenade/melee party: are 'super kills' kills with those while radiance is active? Do overall grenade kills and melee kills then excluse these, or are they counted twice? Regarding grenade use: - Defenders grenade: one grenade (suppressor) does not kill.Hence 'efficiency' of the grenades for defenders can not be measured just looking at grenade kills. Regarding Melee kills: gunslinger melee kills: not sure throwing knife is counted there or in the artifcat kills. Let's assume it's in melee kills: incendiary blade perk kills: I believe they are counted as 'artefact kills', hence real efficiency of throwing knife is underestimated) It's basically really hard to judge the sunsinger because its stats are 'distorted' by its super. that being said, if you ponderate the stats by a representativity index (i.e. divide by the percentage a subclass repsents in the total population, you get this (keeping in mind the limitations above: Subclass population: (class % of population divivded by subclass percentage), = representativity index 1. Sunsingers: 20.83% 2 Bladedancers: 17.44% 3 Striker: 17.07% 4 Gunslinger 16.76% 5 Defender 15.13% 6 Voidwalker 12.77% Melle kill ratio (Melee kills percentage divided representativity index): 1 sunsinger: 1.25 (but remember : boosted up by super depending on how super kills are counted) 2 Voidwalker 1.16 (see the influence of the uneven warlock population?) 3 Striker 1.05 4 Bladedancer 0.93 5 Defender: 0.90 6 Gunslinger 0.68 (but incendiary blade are maybe counted under artifacts.. so underrated) Grenade kill ratio (grenade kill percentage / representativity index) 1 Sunsinger: 1.25 2 voidwalker: 1.16 (again, smaller population means higher in the grenade efficiency ranking) 3 Bladedancer 1.12 4 Gunslinger 0.94 5 Striker 0.8 6 Defender 0.68 (but the suppressor grenade doesn't kill... so it should be artificially elevated' to compensate for that, which is not done here) Supers: 1 Bladedancer 1.25 2 Gunslinger 1.12 3 Striker 1.09 4 Voidwalker 0.99 5 Defender 0.83 (but see comment above, a bubble itself doesn't kill anyone) 6 sunsinger (but see comment above: how is this defined?) Conclusions: - stats are a b**** - from the clearly offensive supers, hunters do give the best kill chances but - too many unclarities to properly classify defender and sunsinger in there.
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Nice stats and some just words. what's your source on the numbers? bungie.net or anything else? a couple of words for people who seem to bitch about arc grenades: If one of the damage-cone grenades is not thrown pretty perfectly, it gets stuck in the weirdest angle and either fries it's owner or puts all it's damage in the ground. these things require some skill and luck or they are pretty worthless. However, I noticed I got a lot of kills from the grave using them. People just blindly walk into the loud, flashing lightning that is practically impossible to miss. Just be more careful. And magnetic grenades ... yeah those were invented to further the downfall of skill, because this game is made for a group of people that is considered unskilled. homing grenades, pff. still Destiny is pretty unforgiving when it come to grenades ...even a slight miss and you deal next to no damage.
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I would use wood walker more in pvp if they had a sticky grenade. I just love fusion grenade so much. However, if I had nothing manacles I would use it too.
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*sigh* if any hunter every complains about their subclass being weak in PvP I give you permission to use their cloak to choke them until they pass out. On the flip side, Arc Blade is 99.9999...... useless in PvE damage-wise since it's main objective is to do damage unlike say a Ward of Dawn and NOT just for Vanish. A hunter knows true happiness when they see a Brawler modifier on and thinks 'yes I can ACTUALLY and EFFECTIVELY kill things with this useless PoS' [spoiler]arc blade is useless as a super GG ehhh it's decent enough[/spoiler]
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Hunters are underpowered compared too warlocks,warlocks are Op af Titans well they're a little dumb lol I play all three
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just wait until taken king comes out and watch the crying then ohhh im gonna have a laugh lol BUFF NERF BUFF NERF LOL
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What're u trying to say here?