[quote]Most of the time I won't finish a match. I'll just walk away from the controller. It's not something many players want to participate in, in the first place. But since we don't have an alternative, maybe figure out a way to play as something other then a clay pigeon. I will not waste time learning maps or gearing up for PvP. It's something I'm only doing for exotic bounties so why should I have to alter how I play and invest time in something I don't enjoy.[/quote] This is part of a message I received on the topic of matchmaking and balance in this game and it highlights the issue of Bungie trying to balance this game for everyone. These are the type of players who go into PvP and, because they don't know what they're doing, because they don't know the maps, because they don't have any experience to fall back on, they piss and moan that the Crucible is broken, that it's unbalanced and unfair, that weapons are OP, that abilities like Shoulder Charge and Arcblade should be removed or nerfed. It's absolute bullsh*t and yet these are the players that Bungie continue to placate in each new weapon tuning. I got my ass kicked more than I won when I started playing. After the first IB I had a k/d of .69. It took me until around 900 PvP kills to reach a 1.0 That's how it works, you play, you learn, you get better. Or at least that's how it's supposed to work, instead there's just too much, you play, you lose, you cry to Bungie to nerf the competition down to your level. [b]All of you that constantly cry nerf are ruining this game and Bungie, you're flushing it right down the crapper every time you pander to their every whim.[/b] I had another conversation today about Thorn and whether or not it is an OP weapon. Over the course of the last few months, that statement has been thrown around quite a bit by about 20% of the player base. What hasn't been established is verified proof of Thorn or any other weapon for that matter leading to more success in PvP. In order to conclusively prove any weapon is OP, the first thing it would require are actual in-game statistics showing the average k/d and average scoring of Thorn users vs those of every other weapon. Those statistics do not exist. What does exist is the stat that Bungie laid out with the update for 2.0 that 25% of players fired at least one round with Thorn in the last Iron Banner. That means exactly jack sh*t. They actually phrased it that [i]25% used Thorn [/i]to try to bend the numbers to look more over the top, but not everyone who tried or used Thorn, used it exclusively (hence the actual claim should have been fired at least a round). The other statistic and the Holy Grail of the nerf crowd is this Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2ugaok/indepth_weapons_sats_spreadsheet_for_pvpttk/ It's a pretty amazing piece of work and it looks like it tells quite a tale, but there are a couple of glaring problems with it. 1) It is numbers generated in a vacuum and not in the course of actual gameplay where there are many other factors that mitigate into who wins any particular encounter such as precision, RoF, magazine size, reload speed, map layout, cover availability, sight lanes and weapon variations. 2) While the TTK numbers look all pretty in red for the weapons they'd like to isolate by TTK, there is a massive discrepancy on the list in that Suros, Vex, TLW and Thorn are the only weapons listed multiple times and factoring in additional perks. If you're going to tell me Thorn has a TTK of .76 with Aggressive Ballistics, then I want to see the stats for Coiled Hiss (with a .80 TTK) when you factor in Glass Half Full which I have on one of mine. Until you give us numbers for every possible perk/damage combinations then these numbers are meaningless. 3) This is from the actual Reddit thread and is a nice disclaimer that most probably never read. [quote]Most importantly, Practicality This is something very important to keep in mind, these statistics show weapons effectiveness on paper, and your experience in-game might be marginally different from what you see with these core numbers. Fact is your not going to hit only headshots and only bodyshots all the time. You'll most likely hit a combination of the two, and by doing some math yourself you can find out how many headshots you need to get maximum efficiency out of your gunplay (example: you only need two headshots on a Jigoku for it to be at it's maximum killing potential). TTK isn't everything. For example, while some lower damage weapons have lower TTK, they also make up for it with higher rate of fire or really good range and accuracy (scout rifles). The more bullets you can fire down range, the more likely you are to hit your target. Each bullet increases your chances of a hit, and you should focus on what gun that suits you the best. While Suros Regime is an excellent weapon, if you miss a single headshot, then any other auto rifle will be able to kill you faster. This is why the Cydonia AR archetype is very popular because it is a incredibly versatile when it comes to TTK.[/quote] This is the crux of why all the nerf bullsh*t is mostly just bullsh*t. Even though the OP was smart enough to know that what they're pedaling is mostly smoke and mirrors, they still follow this actual truth up with this stupidity [quote]•The Abyss Defiant w/focus fire has the slowest kill potential of any weapon in the entire game. If you use this in PVP, I would recommend you don't.[/quote] Here you pointed out that missing shots is critical when dealing with weapons where, at best in a completely sealed environment, their pure dps advantages are measured in the hundredths of seconds; and yet you ignore everything else to recommend people not use a weapon that is incredibly accurate and can fire uninterrupted for probably 5 seconds (another conveniently missing stat from the spreadsheet). You can say all you want not to use it because it has a slower on paper TTK, but the fact is that in actual use it is a killing machine. I've stood face to face with a Thorn user and outgunned them with AD. You can't quantify the number of double kills you can rack up because you don't have to reload to take on a second opponent. These are things that this spreadsheet cannot show. It can't quantify the advantage that 3rd Eye gives. If I have it and a Thorn user doesn't, who is generally landing the first shot? TTK in nullified before Thorn can fire. So will 2.0 make the game more balanced? Maybe, maybe not. The more pressing question in my opinion is who are we trying to balance it for? Is it for PvPers who compete and have a clear advantage from a particular weapon? Or are we balancing it for the kids who won't try to use different weapons to see what they're good with or learn maps so they know where their weapons are most effective? Last but not least, I'd like to see real stats, Bungie. I want to see the proof that Thorn trumped all in PvP (and don't just throw out ToO numbers, I want to see full Crucible stats from the games most of us play). Show us k/d. Show us scoring averages. Show us average kill distances. The only bigger waste than your "number of users" statistic is the number of actual great weapons that you're going to ruin for no reason. ----Edit---- So at approximately 23 IB matches so far this week, I'm willing to bet I've died to Thorn less than 10 times. I've died to the poison twice and both times killed them too. Give us detailed stats Bungie. At the end of IB, I want to be able to see what I died to the most and the least.