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Edited by haydenlh2: 9/7/2015 11:47:17 PM
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MTU used as a glitch to exploit PvP!?

The normal MTU size is 1500 bytes of data on an Ethernet connection or 1492 bytes on PPPoE. The allegations that I've heard thus far, is that this is the new method since Trials deployed, in which enemies are gaming the system in order to make their character harder to kill or invincible. The first bit of the research was to launch google and I noticed a lot of Italians were using it as an exploit and posting videos to youtube. A sources of older game play using the exploit~ [url]https://youtu.be/czyRhHaGwrU[/url] You will notice the player can not see enemies nor can the player be hurt or killed. The player did this by altering his PS console network MTU rate to 600 down from the original 1500 byte rate. [b]So what exactly is MTU[/b] MTU stands for Maximum Transfer Unit and it is a setting that limits the maximum size of a network packet. Back in the early days of communication devices had to know the maximum data rate the other device could handle to maximize the throughput of the system. Larger files could be fragmented into smaller units in order to be transmitted by different mediums. [b]How is MTU applied in Crucible of Destiny[/b] Crucible is not server based, it is a series of Peer to Peer (P2P) connections, you have one host and everyone else is connected to that host via a peer connection. So I shoot the host in crucible-- my packet goes to the host of the game and is applied, this will be the lowest latency of that match. I attack a non-host player and my packet goes to the host then is forwarded to the non-host player console. [b]When the host has a low MTU[/b] All players in the game can be green bar with the destiny server but the game content will appear glitchy and lag, all players will take more damage than normal excluding one shot kill weapons like snipers and high impact shotguns. You will get the feeling that your shots are not registering. Your system has to work more in order to fragment and comply with the MTU. [b]When a non-host player has a low MTU[/b] Those players with a low MTU will sometimes appear glitchy and lag, they will take more damage than normal from non-high impact weapons and snipers. You will feel like your shots are not registering. The host system has to work harder on fragmenting and complying with the non-host players lower MTU. [b]What a severly low MTU player looks like in Trials of Osiris[/b] Note the players can not be killed and can capture the zone as in the first link above. [url]https://youtu.be/MLRDWxKZpq8[/url] [b]How is MTU usually done in a crucible match[/b] Each P2P connection sends a top down fashion to find the maximum rate for each P2P connection, then sets that as the assigned MTU for each if you are the host. If you are not the host of the match it will only negotiate one P2P connection. Over a course of a match those rates change over time. [b]How MTU is done with a fixed assigned manually value[/b] Simply it is the assigned value, no need to negotiate with other P2P and if a lower MTU is on another connection your system will fragment your datagram into smaller units. [b]What happens if the datagram segments are larger than the MTU[/b] The system actual communication ports mark the data as jabber, most systems auto detect this and block traffic until the segments are again inline with the MTU. [b]So what is the exploit[/b] Changing the MTU rate is altering the throughput of a network. Throughput is the actual data sent as bandwidth is the maximum amount that can travel. Well the game itself needs a certain amount of the data just to load and run and in the case of the first video the player found an MTU rate that allowed that "cheater" to load the game and not any other player. [b]So this does show that it is an exploit of the game[/b]. Referencing other sources, as the MTU is increased it allows more content to load as some allies and enemies. Note that MTU is variable to each system, a set MTU for one person could be a different value to cause the same effect on another system. Thus applying a variance of the MTU allows a player to control what can load in a gaming atmosphere on their system. [b]So what is the claim glitch [/b] If a player alters their MTU, only the players that are loaded in his system can cause damage to that player. While indicating the player is a green bar. Basically taking advantage of the throughput to control and limit engagements. If one were to play with the values to where only a few players could load, then ran with team mates using the same settings, they would always have a 2v1 or 3v1 before the next player could load and cause damage. Giving the appearance of a player taking more damage than a max armor ram warlock with radiant skin and a flame shield. ---Side note that needs to be nerf'ed!!! Full clip to take down half a shield... who is the idiot at Bugie that thought of that. Of the main hacks, this is the one that is overly being used in the last few months as the crucible system continues to be a lagfest. The main exploits are lagswitch, host UDP flooding his router to lag everyone out, MTU mod, and scripts being loaded into modified controllers to auto assist a player. These evolve everyday but are centered on the fact the system is P2P and all but the script kiddies on modified controllers would be solved by dedicated servers. Hopefully this information is useful for Bungie to resolve the issue by requiring a minimum MTU rate in order to play in the PvP environment and/or gives them greater cause to seek and outsource a dedicated server platform. Bungie you can not make PvP a primary part of the game if you are unwilling to fix the most basic design faults! Take Care and Good Luck gaming [b]EDIT1[/b] Looking into the P2P on crucible you actually do have a connection with each player, the majority of the traffic goes to the host. From looking at those P2P communication it appears to only be used in determining the host. I will try to make time to capture some data next month and trace the data packets that indicate a shot and the communicated hit markers received. [b]EDIT2[/b] I can not test this exploit/glitch, as I'm currently in a dorm building on Public high speed WiFi internet that is included in the rent due to being a contractor. Thus no access to the router and the huge volumes of traffic make it hard to capture. I'm also not allowed to manipulate it due to my clearance in the field as it would be a breach. All I can do is post the information, monitor reactively with a packet sniffer and hope Bungie changes it's parameters to require a minimum MTU that allows the PVP match to act as intended.

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  • Edited by dtdionne: 11/21/2015 1:59:37 AM
    Hrm, technically, layer 1 and the first half of layer 2 (media access control portion of the data link layer) inner-workings are transparent to the upper layers. There must be more going on, or to this. I just ran a test... Background - my ps4 connects to a cisco 4948ee, which connects to a cisco 6807 VSS cluster, which connects to a cisco asa 5585x cluster, which converges (connects) 3 different wans, 1) cisco asr 9022 vss cluster dwdm otn gigapop 2) cable modem resi 3) adtran atlas frame over atm telco Nothing I did had any effect remotely close to that described, as I expected...but here's what I tried. I decreased mtu size, in 100B increments, on the following interfaces... 1)ASA Inside to 6807 2)ASA Outside (all 3 wans) 3)6807 interface to 4948 and visa versa 4)4948 interface to ps4 So, I presume that this "exploit" is implemented on the ps4 itself...something I didn't and won't try because of the ps4's network abstraction. This leads me to believe that if this is true, it has way more to do with how the ps4 wraps frames than it does layer 1's maximum transport unit. Regardless, this is still a very intriguing topic, I'd like to know more... As an asside, Im in the process of writing a crucible specific wireshark dissector. Well, I already wrote one, but it's pretty crude...so I'm writing a newer, and hopefully far more elegant one. One that specifically dissects cheating. If anyone's interested, I'm down for discussion...if not, that's cool too. The ultimate goal is to document the "anotomy of crucible cheats" in a video or something

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    • I feel like this is the exact same copy and past post that was posted daily for entire month of July.

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      • I'm really curious how this will play out in the new and improved ToO that's releasing soon.

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        • I don't understand how Bungie doesn't have at least a minimum MTU in order to find players in Matchmaking. Even Call of Duty has a minimum MTU around 1300 that if you set it below that you'll just sit in the queue and not find anyone to play against.

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        • Bump bump bump awesome post.

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        • You could probably hack min requirements if bungie programmed it to kick you if your mtu rate dropped below 600 mind you they should at least look at the game play if your repeatly being reported for bad connection and cheating but nope watch porn and planing holidays is all what the ban team does all day anyway so why even brother playing.

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          • Edited by Unforgiven: 9/8/2015 9:00:32 AM
            They already banned a bunch of people who exploited the MTU. Not sure if you have been paying attention to News at all. Continue to report people who are hard to damage, for cheating and bad connection.

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            • No idea what this was all about but it looked fancy and professional so you my sir are getting a bump! Bump!

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            • Bump

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            • One question: is it cheaper to use this P2P host system than to have dedicated servers?

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              • Edited by BiggyBari: 9/8/2015 8:47:51 AM
                Bump. People at Bungie, please address this issue quickly. The weapon balance that will occur today will increase these types of behavior, as it will be harder for some people to "play well and fair" to get some decent results in matches. With the increasing interest from people to go in Crucible due to Trials, you should have gathered enough data and feedback about these issues. And I will not even talk about all the YouTube videos that are doing some naming and shaming about lagswitching and other crappy cheating methods that can occur...

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              • Thank you for a clear and thorough write up. I hope bungie takes note.

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                • Didn't they start banning this a couple weeks or so back when it was making the forum rounds?

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                  • Edited by Judge_Rhymehold: 9/8/2015 1:07:51 AM
                    Oh and thanks a ton for this info. Always hated the network side, kinda sad for a .net guy :) so any info at all relating to the network part of destiny is great! Is there any way to use this info to improve the connections? But not to exploit others. Any recommendations in general for improving the connection? Always tend to get Nat 2 or whatever the middle one is, says its common but not great basically. Hoping to fix this common scenario of mine; There's one friend(A) of mine in the NE me(B) south south east. IRL friend(C) a few miles away. A and B in a party talking C joins C can't talk to A B leaves A and C can talk B joins B or C can't talk to A while the other can(I don't know if there is a pattern to making B or C being the one to talk to A. Doubting it's random. Maybe first to connect to him?) Basically, in a console party only B and A can talk or C and A. B and C can always talk. In game chat, most times we can talk. Just that sound quality... :) Any help would be greatly appreciated. I haven't really made in router setting changes. Ever since I switched from Comcast technicolor to arris my major NAT problems cleared up. It's only now that I'm ready to try to clear it up completely. (Used to be on Xbox which is why I switched from technicolor since M$ consoles have known issues with TC routers from Comcast) I know they have a guide. I just don't know how much I trust them to not have me do something that will negatively impact something else. I mean before even researching console connectivity to see that TC routers will very likely cause restricted Nats on XBoxes they just say go do the admin level setting on your ports! Really? That should be last resort before telling the masses just go tinker with your router. Can't imagine how many 13+ y/o jacked up their parents internet! :) I've reached out asking them to add the clause to go swap out the router for free but they ignored me. That's so strange!!! Shit I just kept going. :) sorry for the book! TL;DR: You're awesome, thanks for brain food on destiny p2p network! Can mtu be tweaked as a legit way to improve overall game performance? What do you recommend I do to my network for the absolute best possible connection for destiny? Need to resolve the nat 2 up to the very best Nat (dunno the right terms...). Comcast arris brand router can get model if necessary. Ps4. Thanks.

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                    • Bump so hard! Great post!

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                      • Dude bungie better address this shit.

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                        • Old news. This has been a known issue for months, but thanks for giving a step-by-step tutorial to the less scrupulous players on the board. Easy to do on a PS, for xbox, you have to do it at the router. Also, if they catch you = instaban

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                          • BUNGIE, HIRE THIS GUY!!

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                          • Ok Bungie I believe you now have a well qualified candidate for the software security for Destiny and beyond within your company. Heed the community and HIRE THIS GUY

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                          • I've learned much from the last 6 months of playing Destiny... I'm going to play the next good game that comes out with dedicated servers, then avoid any and every craptastic peer to peer hosted game in the future.

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                          • Bump bump bump

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                          • I haven't played pvp in a while, but I will agree. I do not want a fun competitive match ruined by manipulation of outside forces. All these issues need to be addressed and fixed in a manner that repeat offenses do not occur in the future. No "bandaid" fixes. Seriously I have never found the fun in cheating(tried on some PC games like counterstrike). I like to test my skill appropriately.

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                            • Yep. They can even survive a final round efrideets shot with 1/4 of their health left its -blam!-ing retarded to even -blam!- with the pvp in this game anymore.

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                              • Bump. I've had bullets do little damage hundreds of times. Just typical shitty crucible lol

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                              • Bump

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                              • I've lowered my MTU in the past...Because it was a huge benefit but not in the cheating sense! Let me explain. Lets say your MTU is set to 1500 auto, but that's actually larger then the bandwidth of your ISP provider. So when you run a ping test, your packets will come back "Fragmented" which means the information is coming in faster then the system can decode them. Fragmented = Slow. So you keep lowering the MTU and keep doing the ping test. Until lets say you get to 1476 MTU. Where the packets now say 0% fragmented, and you have a perfectly balanced network. This = Win. For myself and my lousy DSL I had 6mb/sec download and 500kb upload with 1500 MTU. After I tuned it to 1476. I had 8mb download and 1mb upload.. HUGE improvement! In fact if you ever heard of a ISP "throttling" your connection? This is what they are doing, they are lowering your MTU so it's not in sync anymore. The other problem IMO, is cable modems! Take my Brothers for example. He has a 15mb download (Sounds good) but his upload is only 500kb. Now if someone else is on the network.. The upload drops from 500kb, to 230 kb and less! Which makes him lag like crazy on games like Destiny. It's the upload that's the problem !

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