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originally posted in: Sunbreaker is Too Strong w/proof
Edited by Lilrooster156: 10/8/2015 5:34:21 AM
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Text wall inbound. Okay you left some things out. You singled out Cauturize but forgot to mention that anything that starts health regen does it exactly the same way and at exactly the same rate. This means the Red Death perk, the perk on the Suros Regime, Hungering Blade, Life Steal Energy Drain, and orb pickup on helmets and Transfusion in the Striker tree start health regen and shield regen at same rate. Unless you want everything changed don't just mention Cauturize. You talked about duration and compared it to Golden Gun. Stormcaller duration is enough to kill you wait for you to respawn in Rift even when you have to wait to "Find a spawn location" and then be killed by the tail end of the super. This has happened to me more than a few times. You even showed Stormcaller duration when you killed the Sunbreaker and another guy them had time to go across mao and get a Stormbringer medal. Let's compare melee. I've killed people from Felwinters level range with Stormcaller melee without the perk that extends the range. Titan melee in any subclass sucks. On Stormcaller activation you get a mini Fist of Havoc. With the Titan if running sunspots we dont get an AOE on activation and the one we do isnt as leathal. If you're close enough to be burnt by the sunspot you're already going to die. I've done and seen Warlocks run up and activate super with Landfall and then start zapping. You were complaining about a Sunbreaker range. A Stormcaller doesn't even have to be in the same room. There have been several times when I haven't seen the Stormcaller and died to Stormtrance because of chaining. What about Nightstalker? Nightstalker has enhanced radar that shows exact location on your mini map and on your HUD even with the slightest bit of damage. Shadestep is blink 2.0 with no cool down. I can't count the amount of times I've been shadesteped shot gunned already. With quiver you get to activate super then run around while it counts down and whole it counts down you get to run around with whatever gun you chose until you use the other two shots. Nightstalker doesn't get DR while doing this? Neither does Golden Gun and it has no damage reduction. Gunslinger compared to Sunbreaker? Obviously duration is much different. Travel time to kill target based on range? Golden Gun: instantaneous. Sure has damage drop off now but unless you're trying to snipe someone across a map like First Light this doesn't come into play. The aim assist doesn't matter either because of the 0 travel time on the shot. Sunbreaker from the same range takes a couple seconds more then enough time to dodge it. Avoiding hammers compared Golden Gun shots? I'd rather try to dodge hammers then bullets. Hammers are super easy to avoid. You proved that when you zapped the Sunbreaker with Stormcaller. Sunsinger? Duration is also fairly long and doesn't go down with every grenade you throw or every time you melee. It doesn't have the same on hit kill capabilities of a hammer but the Sunsinger grenades are still pretty lethal even after the bolt grenades range nerf and the sticky grenade reduced tracking abilities. The overshield with a melee hit and not a kill (like a Defender needs) increases chances of survival in any fight if you get a melee. Everyone talks about a Bladedancer nerf but unless it was a ninja nerf or everyone is talking about when the reduced DR from 75% or whatever it was to 50% it didn't happen. There is nothing on the 2.0 patch notes. There was aspects like bolt range and sticky tracking is now less aggressive. Blink had its cool down slightly increased but not really enough to notice, I still get blink shotguned all over the place. These nerfs didn't just effect Bladedancers though. Any subclass with these abilities was hit. Bladedancer moves so much faster than a Sunbreaker it doesn't need to have any more damage reduction then it does. Titans can move fast in a straight line going around a corner is a lot harder. They are not more agile than a Hunter. Shotgun melee isn't in your favour unless you get the drop on them. It is almost always a trade from straight on if they decide it's a bad idea to Razors Edge you. If the Titan misses the Bladedancer with hammers especially in close quarters the Bladedancer wins. When compared to other supers and all the the subclass abilities they have the Sunbreaker isn't that overpowered. Of course if the only thing you're going to show is the duration compared to a Gunslinger and how long it last in 3v3 setting when you have no reason to throw hammers and actually use the super energy it looks bad. What about trials that's 3v3? The Sunbreaker has just as much potential to wipe a team as Bladedancer does. That Gunslinger does. That Sunsinger does. That Stormcaller does. If you want to prove that something is overpowered compare it to everything not just one aspect or abilty. That makes you look biased and salty (which you obviously are) I don't think it should be able to survive a Golden Gun shot. Sniper headshot shouldn't kill any super. That's stupid. What allows the Sunbreaker to survive these things is a chest armor piece with increased armor when using a solar subclass. Without it and just max armor spec in the subclass tree the Titan dies. These armor prices are not exclusive to Titans. I haven't tried it but I wonder if a full armor spec Sunsinger using Radiant Skin and the Ram with one of these armor pieces will make it able to survive these things. P.S. Forgot to mention Bloodbound in Nightstalker tree. Tether more then one target damage only one and kill whoever has been tethered because of shared damage with no reductions. So everyone tethered takes the same amount of damage as the guy you're shooting without ever having to hit them and everyone takes full damage. So you get a 96 damage headshot with Hawkmoon on one guy instead of this being divided by however many people are caught they all take 96 damage.
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  • Edited by SkreeminChkn: 10/11/2015 8:12:27 AM
    Enhanced radar doesn't show shit on the mini map. Shade step DOES have the same cool down as blink. Bladedancer nerf... Google it, it's all over reddit. It was reduced to 25% (imaginary) damage reduction. Bloodbound damage is ONLY IF SOMEONE EXPLODES. It's not any and all damage taken.

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  • Yeah no. I was playing on my hunter last night and keen scout was very helpful I've heard about the shadestep thing several times. This doesn't stop it from being a good evade. Bladedancers take a hell of a lot damage for only having 25% damage reduction. I use Bloodbound. It is my go to perk for Nightstalker. It shares all damage. You shoot one thing and several numbers pop up on screen.

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  • Edited by SkreeminChkn: 10/11/2015 3:03:10 PM
    Funny glitch then because I'm sure it specifically says... Exploding tethered enemies share damage. And no, the radar sucks.

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  • It was very helpful. I used it a lot. It came in handy. It for sure does not suck. What you're thinking with Bloodbound is that after the enemy is killed it explodes and causes damage to other enemies. What it means is the damage is shared and when an enemy is killed they explode. The exact write up is: "Tethered enemies explode when killed. Damage to tethered enemies is shared to all."

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  • Right, the explosive damage. The radar is good for chest and Matt's, not enemies

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  • Didn't have anything good to say and you're still running around saying some dumbshit lol. Amazing

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  • It's good for everything. It's what I use. You can't tell me it's bad when I know it's good. Bloodbound explodes killed enemies and shares damage between all tethered enemies. Go test it if you need to.

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  • Brilliant comment and all. One thing. Shadestep does have a cooldown. The exact same as blink, you can do it twice and then the cooldown of around 2 seconds will kick in.

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  • I've heard. That doesn't stop it from being a good evade. Or change that I have been killed by a shotgun from a hunter coming out if shadestep.

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  • I never said it was bad or good for that matter. I was simply saying that part of your comment was wrong.

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  • Oh okay. Everybody else that comments something similar to that goes off trying to tell me that Shadestep is terrible and that I am wrong. That my experiences are false and stuff. Sorry.

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  • Its fine. Personally my experiences with Shadestep are mixed. I've had good and bad cases. Both using it and having it used against me. It's definitely useful and can easily be used to catch someone off guard. But it does have some downsides, even if they are quite minor. As for the whole Sunbreaker Vs. the world thing? I couldn't care less. The way I see it Sunbreaker is fine. No nerf is needed and if any nerf should come to it, all it would need is a slight reduction to super health. But even then, it shouldn't be needed. I say the old Subclasses need some re-working done to them, considering some, such as Striker, Voidwalker and Bladedancer have been made near useless compared to the newer ones. Even then, Defender, Sunsinger and Gunslinger could use some work on older perks that are never really used. Either way. We'll see what happens probably after this Iron Banner.

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  • I just have to say, out of that wall I picked up on one major thing. You compared random perks from Sunbreaker to random perks from other subclasses, but never chose equivalent perks. Take Sunsinger for example. You make it sound like they're nearly equal in power, yet every single Sunsinger perk is subpar in comparison to Sunbreaker. Sunbreaker has equivalent grenades, a near-equivalent but slightly weaker melee (Due to perks), and much better general perks. Sunbreakers seem to be downplaying just how good the rest of their subclass is in light of their massively powerful super. Maybe it's just that considering how powerful your super is you think the rest of the class MUST suck. It doesn't, currently.

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  • Edited by Lilrooster156: 10/10/2015 1:22:02 AM
    Except Titan melee isn't shotgun range so that right there makes the Sunsinger melee much much better. The grenades, the Thermite grenade is kinda meh. Sticky grenades got tracking nerfed and incendiary can catch people off guard but I haven't seen or gotten to many grenade kills for Sunbreakers. Also I wasn't comparing random perks I was pointing out that the other subclasses have good perks. Good passive perks. There aren't to many in the Sunbreaker tree that actually help you outside of super. Sunbreaker is fairly balanced except for that Golden Gun doesn't one shot. But that is only of the Titan has max armor and a armor piece with solar armor. Sunsinger is very powerful. If you use Radiant Skin like a smart person instead of self res witch does very little for you in Crucible. I've said before Sunbreaker is powerful but not overpowered. The hammers are easy to dodge. Tracking does nothing. Sunspots are only effective if you stand in them and when not using Forgemaster the timer decreases quicker. There won't be exact equivalent perks between the subclasses. They get close though. You can't downplay the value of the other perks. The ones I brought up are good. The equivalent in the Sunbreaker tree in most cases aren't as good.

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  • I went through the trouble of comparing Sunbreaker and Sunsinger side-by-side in a post the other day. And while I don't expect them to be equivalent in every single aspect, I do expect them to have significant trade-offs over each other. Please point out what flaws I've made in this argument (Please note I'm ignoring useless perks - Fleet Fire and Angel of Light). TL;DR: Sunbreaker has much stronger perks than most people realize, and many people seem to be unaware of this fact. When comparing Sunbreaker perks with equivalent perks from other classes, Sunbreaker not only has stronger perks, but also has the single best PvP perk in Cauterize. My conclusion is that replacing Cauterize with a different perk would not only balance HoS's power spike and open up counterplay, but also enable different build paths for Sunbreakers and build paths that could possibly be less super-reliant. Let's start with grenades because this is one of the parts where you're vastly downplaying Sunbreaker. Both classes have Fusion. Thermite and Solar play similar roles - zone control - Thermite is better at controlling choke points, lasts longer, and covers more ground while solar is better at covering important objectives and can Ignite (So the two are near-equivalent). Firebolt and Incendiary are in similar roles - both are weak but have limited use as around-the-corner finishers and/or poke. They do about the same damage, have about the same range, and (can) both ignite. Firebolt is harder to dodge while Incendiary can hit more people. Grenade summary: They're about the same. Melee: It's clear that from a mechanics-standpoint, Scorch is better. However, people are vastly underplaying some of Sunbreaker's melee perks. Scorch is more defensive whereas Sunstrike is more offensive - Brimstone and Thermal Vent fill similar roles with TV being stronger. Melting Point and Flame Shield are exact opposites with which is better being a playstyle choice. Stoke the Forge is massively better than Solar Wind after its nerf and is actually a better version of Knife Juggler due to the base CD reduction. Melee summary: Scorch is clearly superior at face value, but has weaker perks. Super: Let's be clear. There's no question about which super is superior. I won't waste time and space explaining it, I'll just summarize. Hammer of Sol has more kill potential with less skill required (Fusion Grenade stickying versus hammer throwing with possible tracking) to kill, gets damage reduction for free (Radiance requires a perk), and has slightly longer duration (Forgemaster v Radiant Will). Other perks (The part where Sunbreaker is supposedly weak): Ignoring the standard "Stat" perks, Sunsinger has four viable perks - Longer Radiance, grenades ignite, ignite lasts longer, and two grenades. Of these, I'd say Radiant Will is a necessity so longer ignite is gone. Between Grenades ignite and two grenades the two are near equal - if you use grenades on CD having two charges of grenade rarely matters and ignite isn't so strong as to be make-or-break. Not to say they aren't decent choices, but let's take a look at Sunbreaker shall we? Sunbreaker has four-ish (Depending on arguing whether Simmering Flames is worth losing Cauterize or Fire keeper) viable perks - Hammers track, hammers chain explosions on kill, ABILITIES (NOT just super) heal, or sunspots give an overshield and increase HoS length. Of these, Hammers Track/Chain is about the same value as Radiant Will. The problem comes when you compare Cauterize to ANY other perk in the game from a PvP standpoint. Cauterize makes Sunbreaker broken - not only do your 1-shot hammers regen health, but your Fusion/Thermite grenade and resettable-on-kill melee do as well! Fire Keeper isn't nearly as strong as it requires losing Forgemaster for the Sunspot hammer perk or reset-on-kill for the sunspot melee perk but the sheer power behind Cauterize makes every single one of Sunsinger's perks look weak in comparison and even makes the other two Sunbreaker final perks look weak despite being fairly strong from an objective standpoint. In conclusion, the ONLY thing that Sunsinger bests Sunbreaker in is its melee and it's not anywhere near strong enough to make up for the massive amount of power Sunbreaker has in Cauterize and its super. So either Sunsinger is underpowered (IMO, it's not - I know Sunsinger can do well) or Sunbreaker is overpowered. And let's be clear - if it were true and Sunbreaker's "general perks" were weaker than Sunsinger's, the two would be fairly well-balanced against each other. It's okay for Sunbreaker to have such a strong super if it has to give up power when HoS is down. The simple fact of the matter, though is that it doesn't. And the main reason for that? Cauterize has too much power IMO. Honestly, replacing Cauterize's current perk with something else altogether seems like a great option at this point. Not only does it balance HoS's massive power spike, but it could also open up opportunities for Sunbreakers to be more powerful outside of their super depending on what the perk could be changed to. Sorry for the wall, but it's getting frustrating to see Sunbreakers continually say that outside of their super Sunbreaker sucks. It's simply not true.

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  • No Sunbreaker doesn't sucks outside of its super. The grenades I am in agreement with you. Although I think Firebolt can hit multiple people as well. Meleed I have some issues with. Melting point is good but unless the Titan either got first melee or has teammates ready to shoot whoever he hit it becomes useless other than the burn. Which really needs to have the amount of damage it does reduced or how long it lasts. Thermal Vent requires a kill to create a Sunspot so unless you are running Skullfort the first charge isn't going to act like any other Sunbreaker melee other then the explosion. Stoke the Forge is not great. Once again unless running something that gives another melee charge, the first hit takes the charge and the perk becomes useless. Sunsingers range plus the ability to get a flame shield and have 2 melee charges Sunsinger easily wins. You left out whatever perk causes enemies to explode from Sunsinger tree. The only perk that the Sunsinger melee tree has that isn't better than the Sunbreakers is Solar Wind. Hammers of Sol is definitely more lethal than Radiance. Radiance gets damage reduction on activation. It gets more with the use of Radiant Skin but if not running that for PvP you're doing it wrong. Self res is not very useful for PvP. Duration I'd says is about the same Sunbreakers get a long time of they don't throw hammers. Sunsingers get a long time no matter what. When actually using both instead of just sitting there they are tied. Radiant Will is so far from a necessity. Sunsinger lasts a nice amount of time without it. Viking funeral is stupid lethal when combined with Touch of Flame and still can be very good even if you use Gift of the Sun. Tracking on hammers is useless in any situation. The tracking is worse than any Rocket Launcher anywhere from anything. It is absolute garbage. Explosive Pyre will probably get you kills of you killed someone but missed the idiot standing next to them with a hammer. This is the only time Explosive Pyre has any effect. Fleetfire can have any ability get it to activate but grenades and melee are at best mediocre. Simmering Flames is only good if you don't use your super while waiting for it to charge the perk is useless. While super is charged it does provide a nice boost to cool downs. Cauturize does heal on any abilty kill, but as was already pointed out grenades are mediocre and Titan melee is not super great. While it is totally possible to get kills using these it doesn't happen that much. Cauturize is to help save you during super kinda like what Hungering Blade does for Bladedancers. If you do use Sunspots and you want to keep the overshield and Hammer of Sol to last longer you become a stationary turret. So where you activate it will matter. You can't remove Cauturize. If you do you need to give the Titan a better way of avoiding damage with out an exotic or needing to be on the air. Why? Because as soon as anyone sees a Sunbreaker they start shooting and with how easy a Titan is to hit they would die really quick. He might get a few kills in but the super would become a very short experience especially with it being teamshot. It might need a slight nerf to the amount of damage reduction it has. It most definitely needs to die to a Golden Gun in one shot. It might need the amount of damage the hammers do reduced because currently with a direct hit it one shots everything supered or not including other Sunbreakers but maybe not because unless close quarters you're not likely to hit something directly. Range doesn't matter with this super either because of travel time. The hammers are already easy to dodge if you jump but at range you have time to finish eating, clean up, and get out of the way and watch the nice firework show the exploding hammer will provide. While outside of super Sunbreaker might not suck put it certainly is far from best. Sunbreaker is most definitely powerful but it is not overpowered.

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  • I appreciate where you're coming from, but Cauterize almost needs to go - that, or either damage reduction needs to be gutted or damage needs to be gutted. As most Sunbreakers I've talked to cry at those two suggestions, replacing Cauterize with another perk is the best option - it would force the Sunbreakers to play on-point with their super time, or risk dying - similar to how Golden Gun is a walking target for snipers and shotguns. I just know that whatever the problem is with Sunbreaker, you shouldn't be able to have a higher kill potential than every other super, the damage reduction of Sunsinger, and the healing capabilities of Bladedancer in a [i]single super.[/i] If perks need to be buffed or reworked to keep Sunbreaker viable, by all means. But something has to go because as it stand HoS has the best of all worlds and no glaring weakness.

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  • Rather than completely removing cauterize, why not as bungie to add an addendum to it that states it only works against the minions of the darkness. That way, (most) everyone will be happy in crucible without ruining the sunbreaker for the PvE side. (In my opinion, I think that addendum should be put on all of the health regen class perks.)

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  • Golden Gun is much different due to the fact it has no travel time. If the are on target and shoot you there is no getting out of it. You die. Their effective range is also much better than a Sunbreakers. If a Sunbreaker throws a hammer across map you have more then enough time to move. If you don't it's your fault and you can't blame anyone else. You can't rush straight at a Golden Gun you have to play smart or you die. They way people react to a Sunbreaker now it would be even more of a target because it would be easy to kill especially with team shots. If a Sunbreaker came upon more then 1 or 2 people they wouldn't have much of a chance to do much. People just stand there right now and take whatever the Sunbreaker does to them. You have to dodge. Jump and stuff. Hammers are easy to avoid if you actually move. You might not be able to kill one by yourself but you're not you're not killing to many Stormcaller a by yourself either. Run if you need to and hat isn't the only counter. Shotguns and snipers work well. I've killed a Sunbreaker with one other person helping me. There was only two of us and we won. How? Avoiding hammers and teamshots. Higher kill potential? Nah. Stormcaller and Nightstalker are pretty good to. Bloodbound on Nightstalker is very good with getting kills if you hit more then one target. Stormcallers chaining us pretty lethal as well and they get a Fist of Havoc on activation. I've seen more Stormcallers clear entire teams and most likely get 7th Column medals than I have Sunbreakers. Sunbreaker isn't overpowered you just don't know how to react to it.

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  • It's by no means that I don't know how to react to Hammer of Sol coming down. It's that the viable reactions are so limited that there's no real counterplay. Bladedancer was nerfed specifically for this reason way back before TDB released. Reactions 1) Run for dear life. 2) Outplay the sunbreaker massively (This includes sniping them TWICE, surviving long enough to tether them, dodging 6 hammers, or being able to focus fire a massively armored guardian before a single person dies to a hammer). 3) Be one of two subclasses, have super up, and use it before sunbreaker can throw two or three hammers (Striker/Voidwalker). Hunter has no guaranteed counter (Two GG shots or surviving long enough for tether are not counters, they're outplaying). None of those seem like good reactions, no? Whereas every other mobile super has a clear reaction. Stormtrance? Split up, focus fire, keep distance - admittedly, Stormtrance needs it's armor hit a bit as well. Arc Blade? Don't let them in melee range, shotgun/melee, snipe, really anything. Radiance? Dodge grenades (Much easier than hammers). Golden Gun? Corner camp, snipe, sticky grenade, heavy, etc. If you weren't here for Destiny's release, let me give you a little history: At the start of the game, Arc Blade had as much armor as Sunbreaker does. Combined with Hungering Blade, it made Arc Blade almost exactly like Hammer of Sol. Except it was melee. They nerfed Arc Blade's armor because it was so hard to deal with on the Destiny map pool. So based off of the past, a Hammer of Sol nerf is almost certainly coming. If it isn't, I'd be surprised. Sunbreaker does need a tiny bit of help outside of its Super to be equivalent to other subclasses outside of super, and Defender needs it's own special sort of love for PvP viability outside of control/salvage, but Hammer of Sol needs a nerf badly.

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  • It does not need to be out played massively. It just needs to be outplayed. It's very easy. I don't it all the time. The teamshots is totally viable because of how easy it is to avoid hammers and most likely the Titan will only go after one person till they're dead. Sniping them from range is as hard as sniping anything else from range. If you're close up trying to snipe you're doing it wrong. Corner camping with an all right rate of fire shotgun instead of a slow rate of fire will get you a kill because in my experience most Titans don't throw hammers through doors for no reason. Sunbreakers shouldn't survive a Golden Gun if shot first. They barley do as it is and if they have the right stuff equipped. If one thing is missing they die. I have seen many Sunbreakers shut down by Shadowshot. It's just a matter of not rushing them which isn't special to Sunbreakers if you rush most roaming supers you die. Surviving till tethered is hardly out playing because it doesn't take that long to tether something. Voidwalker and Striker aren't that hard. Voidwalker is easier because it's a ranged Fist of Havoc. Fist of Havoc you have to be a little bit smarter. Just wait on the other side of a door or around a corner and you'll be fine because in my experience not too many Titans throw hammers through doors for no reason. Last night I was running Striker and was able to shut down Sunbreakers easily even if I wasn't right around the corner waiting for them. Having your super up when you need it isn't hard. I think Sunbreakers have at most 55% damage reduction which compared to everything's 50% isn't bad. It is probably because Titans are the armor class. Would I be upset if they changed it to 50%? No not really. I have been playing since Day 1. There is one definite change I would make. Golden Gun survival. Whether buff Golden Gun damage or reduce the damage reduction doesn't matter to me. Striker without Unstoppable still survives Golden Gun shots happened to me last night.

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  • I agree bro I've been saying this forever the hammer is the best thing everything else sucks

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  • Who actually read this?.

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