This topic will be segmented into spoilers - mostly for readability's sake - as this is an incredibly long post and not everyone will want to read all of it. There's a TL;DR at the end just in case you miss something. Before we begin, a few points of note (Please read) - [spoiler][b]Disclaimer #1[/b]: Please, keep this discussion civilized. I realize some people may not share my views (I might be crazy, for all you know!) and I'd like to hear why! But comments such as "Git gud scrub" or "Lol rekt" or even simply "You don't know what you're talking about" do not foster healthy discussion - let alone solve the current PvP class balance issues. [b]Disclaimer #2[/b]: Destiny statistics are hard to come by. The best I can do is http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population and its fairly weak statistics. I'm sorry I can't do better - and if someone does have a better source, please let me know. Realize that the statistics on Destiny Tracker (DTR) aren't a complete representation of balance, and as such much of my balance reasoning is inferred from logic instead of DTR's statistics - I try not to pick and choose statistics that prove my point though, and if you catch me doing this please let me know so I can fix it. [b]Disclaimer #3[/b]: Due to the way DTR tracks Shadowshot kills and the rapid onset of the disease known as the Bottomless Quiver, it's impossible to get an accurate read on Nightstalker super kills and KDA. As such, I'll mostly leave them out of the conversation (I personally believe they are in a good spot balance-wise - with one slight tweak I'll get to later).[/spoiler] Why I believe Hammer of Sol ([b]Not Sunbreaker[/b]) is overpowered: [spoiler]Golden Gun - the top scoring super in PvP on DTR - has a total of 199m kills over a total population of 44% of Hunters' ~2.1m players. That equates to 199m/(2.1m*.44) = 215.37 kills per player using Golden Gun. Hammer of Sol has a total of 130m kills over a total population of 15% of Titans' ~2m players. That equates to 130/(2*.15) = 433.33 kills per player using Hammer of Sol. Hammer of sol is [b]twice as effective[/b] over a time period that is an entire year shorter. That's right - Hammer of Sol has already surpassed 60% of Golden Gun's kills in a short 1.5 months! And while some of this can be attributed to the much larger population (Many of which would not have already joined DTR) and the addition of Mayhem (Which should affect Gunslinger too, though not to the same extent) the rapid rise of Sunbreaker's kills isn't something that can be ignored (Stormcaller to a lesser extent, but more on this later!). Combine this data with the fact that Hammer of Sol has no fatal weak point (The closest I can get is hammers having travel time, which is unimportant in the highly-CQC-biased map pool) and it adds to a super that sounds too good to be true.[/spoiler] Before I go any further: If you have read the above and disagree based on Sunbreaker's weak neutral game, I believe that if Hammer of Sol is nerfed that Sunbreaker neutral game should be buffed to compensate - depending on the size of the nerf. My balance standpoint is that all classes should be about the same power-wise as Stormcaller - Strong neutral game with a large power spike in their super. No player should feel [i]weaker[/i] at any point in the game for choosing a specific subclass! Based on DTR's statistics - The rapid kill accumulation of all 3 Y2 subclasses, along with their abnormally high KDA relative to Y1 classes - I've come to the conclusion that for this to happen, [i]all[/i] Y1 subclasses need varying degrees of buffs and reworks. Admittedly, it is unlikely that Bungie will take the time to do this in a healthy manner, but ideally I believe this to be the best option for a strong PvP balance and metagame. With that out of the way, my ideas on balancing Sunbreaker? [quote]1) Remove Cauterize and replace it with a new perk - Indomitable Flames. Creates an overshield of X strength when the Titan has taken no damage for Y seconds (Longer than natural shield regen timer). This overshield does not benefit from armor, only regenerates after not taking damage for Y seconds, and does not regenerate during Hammer of Sol. (Just a suggestion - I'm open to hearing others' ideas for a replacement perk!) EDIT: Due to PvE being affected by this change, added: [i]Health regeneration starts immediately when your flames bring down a minion of the darkness.[/i] 2) Catapult is replaced with an equivalent of the exotic perk from Twilight Garrison (Evade in air). Twilight Garrison's perk gains an additional buff - what it is, I can't say. Something that fits thematically, if anyone has a suggestion. 3) Simmering Flames' buff is altered. Instead of requiring super to be up, the perk is now a stacking buff that gains stacks based on super amount - 1 stack for 0 super power, 2 stacks for half super power, and 3 stacks for readied super. 3 stacks is equivalent to the current Simmering Flames buff.[/quote] The above changes do 3 things - remove a significant portion of power from Hammer of Sol, drastically increases Sunbreaker's neutral game power, and opens up different options for Sunbreakers to choose from. I personally believe this puts Sunbreaker into a much healthier position - both in terms of PvP balance for the opposing team and enjoyment for the Sunbreaker. I have not had the time to do a comprehensive pass on each subclass, but I look forward to hearing others' ideas both on my suggestions for Sunbreaker and on other subclasses - and if anyone has a good subclass rework/rebalance, let me know so I can add it in! Thank you for your time, and I truly hope this sparks a healthy discussion. TL;DR: Hammer of Sol is overpowered but Sunbreaker is not. As such, Hammer of Sol needs to be nerfed but with this nerf there needs to be neutral game buffs for Sunbreaker. I've provided a (What I consider to be) decent proposition as to a set of changes that brings about the intended results. I believe that PvP balance will be at its healthiest when we balance subclasses such that they have strong neutral games and strong supers. This should lead to less disappointment in any given subclass and more interesting gameplay! If you support this thread, please bump it. Not for the likes/replies for me (It actually drains my battery, hng) - but because I truly believe that most people are interested in a healthy and fair PvP game, and as such should be given the chance to talk about it without fear of being yelled at. EDIT 1: I believe the only thing required to bring Nightstalker in line with the other Y2 classes (Assuming Sunbreaker is changed similarly to what I posted) is to allow tether to activate immediately [i]on direct hit when not using Quiver.[/i] The reason it is not coupled with Quiver is to prevent the fringe case of a single Nightstalker shutting down 3 supers with a single super. EDIT 2: Some changes were made to the Sunbreaker alterations. Please reread if you'd read them already.