But wombo is grenades. Youre not going up to someone and punching them. On top of that, every grenade/melee combo in the game will kill you, so thats why i didnt bring it up. Flame shield is only 50 hp. That means ANY bullet from ANY mid-high impact gun can take it doen, shit, even 4 doctine bullets take it down. Smoke in itself is in the form of a grenade. If you really wanna fight me that its a melee, i will then argue it is thebmost op of all melees. Why? Because no other grenade,melee,effect,ability or anything in the ENTIRE game removes radar, blinds visually, does damage, cuts movement speed by 50% and locks abilities/supers/charged melees/jumps. But indont think any class is op. But you if you think sunsinger is op because of firebolt then you havr to think nightstalker is op due to wombo. How come flashbangs dont do as much as smoke?

"On top of that, every grenade/melee combo in the game will kill you, so thats why i didnt bring it up." This exactly proves my point, while smoke is thrown in grenade form it uses a MELEE charge, making it a melee. If it wasn't counted as a melee I wouldn't be struggling to hit guardians 2 feet away with my little blade after I've used my smoke. The fact that its even an argument that a combination of a grenade and a melee charge, (that in your words is enough to kill with any class), is comparable to a single grenade should tell you the grenade might be a little too powerful. Since it is a fact that the smoke is a melee, I will fight you on your statement that it is the 'best. A smoke can be accurately thrown FROM A DISTANCE and then the enemy can be killed with a gun if used correctly. (Smoke does not prevent the use of a charge melee, so just spam scorch and it will auto snap to your target (: ) If a nightstalker engages in close quarters combat they essentially have no melee. You can't throw a smoke effectively at point blank range and the melee remaining after it is an absolute joke. Meanwhile, there is scorch. Scorch has a ridiculous range and auto attacks nearly anything in your field of view. Almost forgot its the highest hitting melee in the game at 180+ damage, increases your armor by 1, AND gives you a 55 health shield. I can't think of another classes melee that can two hit a warlock using scorch with flame shield, while a warlock can always two hit them. To be fair I have to throw shade step in as a pro for nightstalkers, which against a Sunsinger is only useful if running away as they auto snap you from any point in shade step with scorch. Then you'd have to compare a Voidwall/vortex to a firebolt nade. I mean c'mon, not wasting my time with that. Not to mention the supers, a bow that 5 times this weekend hit someone mid super only to have them kill me before the it could even register. A bow that can't even one shot a warlock with an active flame shield, vs. the ability to come back from the dead with double armor and the ability to spam the most powerful grenade in the game and one hit with the most powerful melee in the game. But yeah, Night Stalkers are OP.

[quote]"On top of that, every grenade/melee combo in the game will kill you, so thats why i didnt bring it up." This exactly proves my point, while smoke is thrown in grenade form it uses a MELEE charge, making it a melee. If it wasn't counted as a melee I wouldn't be struggling to hit guardians 2 feet away with my little blade after I've used my smoke. The fact that its even an argument that a combination of a grenade and a melee charge, (that in your words is enough to kill with any class), is comparable to a single grenade should tell you the grenade might be a little too powerful. Since it is a fact that the smoke is a melee, I will fight you on your statement that it is the 'best. A smoke can be accurately thrown FROM A DISTANCE and then the enemy can be killed with a gun if used correctly. (Smoke does not prevent the use of a charge melee, so just spam scorch and it will auto snap to your target (: ) If a nightstalker engages in close quarters combat they essentially have no melee. You can't throw a smoke effectively at point blank range and the melee remaining after it is an absolute joke. Meanwhile, there is scorch. Scorch has a ridiculous range and auto attacks nearly anything in your field of view. Almost forgot its the highest hitting melee in the game at 180+ damage, increases your armor by 1, AND gives you a 55 health shield. I can't think of another classes melee that can two hit a warlock using scorch with flame shield, while a warlock can always two hit them. To be fair I have to throw shade step in as a pro for nightstalkers, which against a Sunsinger is only useful if running away as they auto snap you from any point in shade step with scorch. Then you'd have to compare a Voidwall/vortex to a firebolt nade. I mean c'mon, not wasting my time with that. Not to mention the supers, a bow that 5 times this weekend hit someone mid super only to have them kill me before the it could even register. A bow that can't even one shot a warlock with an active flame shield, vs. the ability to come back from the dead with double armor and the ability to spam the most powerful grenade in the game and one hit with the most powerful melee in the game. But yeah, Night Stalkers are OP.[/quote] I only debate with people who arent biased, educated and dont exaggerate facts to bolster their point. You downplay nightstalkers over anr over while exaggerating the abilities of sunsingers. Like "come back from the dead with double armor" or "smoke doesnt lock charged melees" or "i dont know of any class that can 2 hit a warlock" All of those are lies or exaggerated. A striker titan can and will always win if the warlock and titan swing at the same time. Self rez has damage reduction, not extra armor and radiant skin is the one where its harder to kill. They never gain armor. Self rez ie the easiest super to shut down. Also flame shield is 50, not 55. I digress. Youre biased and uneducated. I believe both classes are balanced and neither is op. You clearly have something against sunsingers. Peace out ✌ Hmu when you lose your bias and educate yourself more.

You can't say you only debate with people who aren't biased if your being biased as well. You responded almost the same argument to everyone that disagreed with you.

ONLY when they down play every advantage nightstalker has and exaggwrates everything about Sunsingers. If they responded respectfully i would debate.

[quote]I only debate with people who arent biased, educated and dont exaggerate facts to bolster their point.[/quote] Translation: "I can't come up with an effective counterargument, so I'm going to resort to an ad hominem instead of proceeding like an adult."

[quote][quote]I only debate with people who arent biased, educated and dont exaggerate facts to bolster their point.[/quote] Translation: "I can't come up with an effective counterargument, so I'm going to resort to an ad hominem instead of proceeding like an adult."[/quote] Are you serious? Where did i resort to ad hominem? Please, enlighten me. Did you even read my post or this converstaion at all? His bias is clearly impacting is argument. He downplays every advantage nightstalker has and proceeds to bolster his argument with exaggerations about sunsinger. He even listed information that was wrong about multiple topics. Please educate yourself before posting.

I am biased toward Nighstalkers because I am using it currently, but I have used both as a main recently and am fully aware of the intricacies of both classes. As for the quotes you pulled: "come back from the dead with double armor" I didn't quite word this correctly, but during radiance activated from the grave, incoming damage is reduced by roughly 50%. While armor isn't increased, every bullet hit does half the normal damage, essentially giving them twice as much health as a standard guardian. See 1000-Yard stare damage fall off of 417 to 209 for a precision hit. I think it's quite clear what I meant originally, but if you want to call it out for my wording I guess I can't say I am surprised. "smoke doesn't lock charged melees" Go get smoked and report back here, I can tell you it does not. I always throw smokes at entry ways while I am smoked to give me a shot at evading. "I don't know of any class that can two hit a warlock" With this statement I am referring to two guardians engaging in a melee only fight. Warlocks do gain a 55 health shield, a quick google search will reveal that. With that added shield a standard blink strike + non charged melee, or amplitude + non charged melee would not be able to kill a warlock using scorch in two melee hits. I did however forget about a front proc backstab, which would be able beat a warlock, however that is clearly not very reliable. You claiming those statements as lies or exaggerated is just an ignorant way to draw attention away from your own bias. You're sitting up there on your high horse claiming I am biased and uneducated when you have created an entire thread trying to prove warlocks are not as powerful as the majority of the community claims and through your responses only supporting one side of your attempt to present both views. Even though you are too high and mighty to admit to your bias, we clearly have far differing opinions and it would only be a waste of both of our time to continue trying to convince one another. Not to mention our opinions aren't worth much, the game sits as is, and Bungie devs will change it as they see fit, I doubt our banter will have any effect on that.

I dont wany any nerfs regardless of our opinions. I do aporeciate the response and you addressing what i have said. I would also like you to know that i think both classes are balanced due to the drawbacks each have and that in PvE i main hunter and have more total play time on hunter, i just preferred warlock because of voidwalker(purple is my favorite color) in regards to PvP.

Scorch hits for 199 :(