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8/7/2016 11:27:42 PM
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THE GUARDIAN COUNCIL: Discussions and Debates

Continued from: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/208754460 So real quick, just want to say something regarding the last discussion. Its very important that everyone keep in mind that as I've been saying repeatedly, nothing I present to you in these posts is written in stone. They are simply rough drafts serving as a basis for the discussions, something to build upon. If you disagree with anyone, it is far better for you to present OTHER ideas to resolve your issues with something as that actually allows for there to be a conversation. In order to create a system that can stand the test of time and safeguard against those who may try to abuse it for their own personal agenda, its important to subject these topics to intense scrutiny. I am expecting others to be looking for weak points so that we can then address them appropriately. These talks have been going on for a couple months at this point and I have received a great deal of feedback from people, offering different ideas to change things. I shall be compiling all of this feedback and presenting it later on when he start to get into making revisions. For right now, though, I want to get us through the rest of these discussions. As for this post we'll be covering one of the major objectives of the Council itself, which is to actually establish a sense of Order to all the tumultuous chaos around here. An attempt to bring more civility to the forum and encourage intellectual debate as opposed to troll festering shouting contests riddled with insults. Everyone is entitled to having their own opinion, but not every opinion is correct. (That's something we can all agree on, I would think given historical evidence) When there are two opposing sides of an argument, this calls for a Debate to decide which is correct. Debate is an age old concept. Unstructured debates can very easily devolve into utter nonsense, because more often than not you'll have someone who just outright refuses to accept that they are wrong and will continue insisting that they are right, dragging it out for as long as possible with neither side reaching any sort of meaningful conclusion. It wastes the time of everyone involved. However, structured debate operates much differently. First, its important to outline the fundamentals of a solid argument which are broken down into three parts; Claim, Warrant and Impact. [quote][b]CLAIM:[/b] As its name implies, a claim is a statement you are advancing as true. If you are reading evidence, your claim is usually summarized in the card’s tag (or it should be!). Even when you’re not reading evidence, a claim is any declarative statement that you are trying to establish as true within the debate. [b]WARRANT:[/b] This is where the magic happens. Warrants are what you use to create legitimacy for your claims. They are the reasons why the claim is true. You should dedicate a substantial amount of your time to debating about warrants. Warrants can be just about anything, as long as they’re arguments that support the accuracy of the claim. The more specific the explanation is, the better off you will be. [b]IMPACT:[/b] The impacts are why someone should care about your argument. Why is this point important? What does winning it get you in the context of the rest of the debate? How does it interact with other considerations that might also be important?[/quote] Now, there are a number of different ways to go about this. Below I have written up one such method for how to go about handling this, but as always everyone is encouraged to offer up their own ideas for it as well. Remember, the goal here is to create a means in which two parties can present their argument and have it reach an actual conclusion. I have personally been brushing up on the rules and regulations offered by the "National Speech & Debate Association" as well as other various resources for my inspiration. [quote][u][b]Debate Structure[/b][/u] [b]1: Submitted Propositions can be challenged by anyone in the Community. However, any and all disagreements MUST provide an actual argument against such.[/b] (In other words, you can't just say "No" and not give any reasoning for it.) [b]2: When a Proposition has been challenged, it can only be answered by the OP who submitted it. This will trigger the Debate.[/b] [b]3: The OP reserves the right to allow others to represent them in a Debate, however this means that they must accept the outcome of it even if it does not end in their favor.[/b] (Like playing one of those old school games that didn't have checkpoints or save game options and you're at the end but then decide to hand the controller to your buddy. If they die at the final boss and get a game over, you have no one else to blame but yourself.) [b]4: All others observing the Debate shall be referred to as the "Peanut Gallery" and are not allowed to interfere with the proceedings. Doing so could potentially hurt the side that they are trying to support.[/b] [b]5: During the Debate, ANY form of personal attack or insult is strictly forbidden. Based on the severity of the offense, the one found guilty of such behavior may be forced to forfeit the Debate as well as be reported.[/b] (So keep a cool head and don't lose your temper, basically.) [b]6: A Debate will consist of several posts on either side. The following is an example of how this would play out: -[i]Submitted Proposition.[/i] (OP presents their idea) -[i]Challenge Issued.[/i] (Someone disagrees with it) -[i]Counter Argument.[/i] (Post #1 For) -[i]Rebuttal.[/i] (Post #1 Against) -[i]Response.[/i] (Post #2 For)[/b] [b]7: Your opponent in a Debate will have 72 hours to respond to you and vice versa. Either side can ask for an extension if they can provide a good enough reason for it.[/b] [b]8: At the conclusion of the Debate, if neither side can come to an agreement, several Judges will be used to render a verdict based upon the arguments presented. [u]THE JUDGES MUST BE MUTUALLY AGREED UPON BY BOTH SIDES[/u]. Judges must also present the reasoning for their decision.[/b] [b]9: In the event neither side can agree upon Judges, the Council will appoint Judges for them.[/b] (I was also considering that the Council Members could Judge the Debate in this situation themselves, since they have to be reading them anyways.)[/quote] Like I said, there are many different methods to go about handling this. I was talking with Unspoken about this as well and he came up with a very elaborate idea that I feel deserves its own post entirely, which is what will be up for discussion next time. I'm actually not going to be around much this week since me and my wife were asked to house sit for a friend, but I at least wanted to make sure I got this posted up first since folks have been asking me about it. As always, feedback is totally welcome and encouraged. And honestly, even if the Council doesn't end up working out in the long run, we could all benefit from having an actual system in place that actually promotes structured arguments. It would make it easier to stop just blatant trolling and encourage having more civil disputes instead, which is always good. I will be sending PMs to everyone from the previous discussions who took an interest in this as well. (If you don't receive a PM I do apologize, the site isn't really friendly when it comes to this sort of thing...)

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  • This has so many bad ideas. - popularity contest. - maturity levels are quite low. - community wouldn't know how to debate. - I'm right/your wrong mentality. Bungie doesn't even listen to well thought out posts now, let alone a post from the "council".

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    • Edited by Smithy: 8/13/2016 5:00:00 AM
      Never before have I seen such a trainwreck. To mess up this badly you have to have ignored every other potential point of reference. If you actually plan on integrating any feedback, do so before you post again. Nobody benefits from seeing stale, ill-formed ideas. This current system is absolutely asinine, with more wholes in it than the cheese in my soup. I'm this close to just writing up my own proposal and getting it done with. Two claims I will make up front with no backing: 1) Debates are only useful in resolving binary issues (should we do this), and are either useless or inefficient in resolving methodological issues (how should we do this), as a change in methodology must necessarily repeat the entire process. 2) A strict formal system of rules does not mesh with dev culture. Now, here's a list of problems in each step. 1) Define "actual argument." You enumerate that "no" is not. How about "no, I don't like it," or "no, that would make me have less fun." What happens if a disagreement is made with no justification, especially in the case that it comes from a knowlegable source? 2) This would work fine if they were debates for council seats. But as we're debating an idea, it makes no sense to chain its success to the originator's debating skill. If many people are permitted to find flaws in an idea, many must also be permitted to identify its strengths. 3) See above. Is this invokable mid-debate? If so, the previous point holds no water. If not, I can only see this being used to get surrogates to argue for you which, again, tests the person, not the proposition. 4) Incredibly belittling to the everyman, especially for something that is intended to benefit "the Community." 5) Failure to play nice should not invalidate your position. Leave disciplinary issues to the ninjas. 7) What is the thought process here? That people will draw arguments out to leave proposals unresolved? That people will necro threads? 8) Let's be honest, the judges will be invoked every time, and there will never be consensus on who to pick for such matters. Consider: who would you pick in an argument against me? Is there no limitation on what rationale a judge may use? 9) Given that the councilmembers oversee the initial proposal, there is no reason they shouldn't oversee the debate. As they are chosen by "the Community," there should be no issue with impartiality. Lastly, complexity. The current system: Bungie sees posts made by community members, voted to the top of #Feedback/Trending by community hivemind. Your proposed system: Bungie sees posts given to them by community-appointed council members relying on the judgement of community-appointed judges who determined the end of a community debate from a heavily prepared post written by a community member. I highly suggest you stop trying to create an incorruptible system, because you simply cannot without removing the human element. Giving trusted people plenty of fiat is the correct choice.

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    • While I like the idea I am afraid it is a bit to much to make into highly enforced rules instead most of them should merely be the ideal way, you dont [i]have[/i] to do it that way but it is preferred I say this because we must keep in mind our audience and just how diverse we all are and it just might be that such specific and constricting rule might end up oppressing and restricting that said persons way of expressing their opinion and if we want as many people in the community to take part as possible then oppressing the way people can present and express themselves might be the last thing you want on top of all this I think it just might be a bit too much to even expect everyone to do... I dont think everyone would follow these rules and will end up not taking part in these debates because of this and some rules I dont believe have much of a place for example: [quote]2: When a Proposition has been challenged, it can only be answered by the OP who submitted it. This will trigger the Debate. 3: The OP reserves the right to allow others to represent them in a Debate, however this means that they must accept the outcome of it even if it does not end in their favor.[/quote] I dont believe this will work because I dont know about you but I dont everyone has any sort of group to pull from to do this for them not to mention the fact that sometimes the OP simply does not have the words to express his argument for example there have been multiple times in which I have commented in a reply to someone who disagreed with the OP and I elaborated on the OP's point and ended up get a thanks from the OP for it [quote]8: At the conclusion of the Debate, if neither side can come to an agreement, several Judges will be used to render a verdict based upon the arguments presented. THE JUDGES MUST BE MUTUALLY AGREED UPON BY BOTH SIDES. Judges must also present the reasoning for their decision.[/quote] I also find this rule inadequate as well because pulling up judges for every argument sounds extremely tedious I mean just take a look at the forums now and just imagine trying to get 6 people for every individual argument on these forums to act as judges sadly of course I will admit that I have no idea on how we should judge on which side won the argument when neither side agrees whatsoever perhaps we could find a way to see if an opinion is favored out side of arguments one? I honestly cant think of a perfect solution to this problem

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    • Wow, I really thought this ignorant idea would be dead by now. Stop using the word "community" to describe this as a whole. Bungie.net maybe represents 10-25% of people @ most that actually play the game ? Twitter,reddit,youtube,twitch,facebook and any other social media platform I didn't mention are all a part of the community also. Who represents any of them or speaks for them? None of your so called council will speak for a majority of the true community. I find it hilarious that none of you comprehend this,and it's a bunch of effort from someone that doesn't even play the game for nothing. Enjoy the rest of the worthless effort ✌

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      • we all know this "council" will be made up of streamers and youtubers who either have their lips firmly attached to bungies ass with the they can do no wrong mentality or will do as they and their subscribers want. although i didnt read the whole berlin wall of text i stopped when you somehow gave the council the power for a stand in but not the against party. may i ask why? also the whole if its not settled by so and so bit is useless because i have never see a post with 2 people disagreeing where one side changed their mind. so you might as well just say who the judges will be and how they are selected. while i agree if implemented and run correctly this could be a good thing anyone on this site already knows their are too many people that think they are above others for this to ever work

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        • Edited by Beau__98: 8/8/2016 6:31:42 PM
          Lmao, you made a thread to represent the entire community. No one appointed you. Go home

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          • I tell ya right now ive been playing this game since release everyday. I bought the collectors edition ps4 and have purchased games for two consoles. If yhis goes ahead ill jam a -blam!-ing axe through the ps4. This is a VIDEO GAME..........let bungie be in control of their creation

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            • BUMP

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            • *Infinitely Tips Fedora*

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            • Bump

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            • Support bump

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            • I can see you are trying to help but that is so convoluted that its doomed to fail from the offset. you need to apply the kiss principle to it. keep it simple stupid. once you start with rules on top of rules on top of rules its doomed to fail. plus to impose a judge (you havent said how anyone becomes one from what I can see) people will each pick a judge sympathetic to what they want and then you have the counter doing the same. neither will agree to the other so it becomes a moot point. at that point where you stop a person picking a judge they want it becomes pointless. any side that loses will just blame the corrupt system and wont use it again. it needs to be way less rigid. plus you have to remember as cosmo said they will have no power and no link to the devs this council. so no matter what you find there isnt any way of making what you say any more valid within the game. all you can do is give feedback as a group as people already do on this forum. I am not trying to knock your effort to make the game better but I dont see this lasting a month before it fell apart.

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              • Seems interesting, I'd assume that the regular forums would be working as they would be currently, but you'd have this Council be the guys to compile and organize information and try to present it to the devs. Friendly question, how would they decide what information to pass on to the devs and how open would it be? (Sorry if it's mentioned already, I just got home and was only able to skim over it)

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              • Guess the rise of the Sith Lords is comming...

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                • Edited by Synge_X: 8/8/2016 6:10:40 PM
                  Mal, I want to commend you on the fantastic job you have done in putting this post together, but I am concerned about one thing... You haven't played the game in months. You have always been vigorous on the forums. You have always generated interest in your topics(some of which we have debated on) but the game has changed since HOW, dramatically. Playing the game and understanding where we are, is different than playing the forums. As a community, we have been through a whole series of ups and downs since HOW. These dynamics can only discussed in detail by someone who has recently played the game, from all angles, such as PVP, PVE, and endgame content such as Raids and trials. I understand that your interest mainly lies in trying to create a system by which we can more accurately and clearly interact with Bungie, but I urge you, as a representative of this council, to play Destiny. If we were on the same platform, I would most certainly offer to help you get your character leveled. However, you may get a better deal when the Rise of Iron is released, so it may be best to wait. Again I say, if you plan to represent the community in anyway shape or form, I believe that you need to be a part of us, not just on the forums. A finger on the pulse, is not a finger on the trigger. Hope to see join us Guardian.

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                  • Edited by RedWingGirl: 8/8/2016 5:20:09 AM
                    I think by creating these very strict rules you are discounting the feedback of those for and against in previous discussions. While some of the feedback may have not presented itself in a way you find is acceptable, I don't know how many more times you are expecting people to repost their position on it. Also, not everyone here is capable of that level of debate. That restricts good points from being recognized and pushes some away from commenting if they are deemed not worthy by these standards your setting. Are you not able to compile the feed back you've already gotten in order to create your council to present to Cozmo for approval or decline?

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                    • I was wondering if I'd make it here before Puck. I did not.

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                      • The idea of a "guardian council" being comprised by ANY of the outspoken members of these forums is just ridiculous. The vast majority of actual players don't participate in these forums, and the vast majority of who participate in these forums don't even play this game - see where I'm going with this? However I do find it hilarious that I'm starting to see them change the narrative of their posts from toxic to constructive in a vain attempt to appear as an upstanding member of the community. Political posturing at its finest.

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                        • "The peanut gallery chimes in after much debate"

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                        • I have a feeling the haters from the opposing side are going to have a real problem with the whole debate part. I foresee many insults on the way.

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                          • Bump. Sorry I can't really contribute to the idea much. I'll be happy to help with anything I can though.

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                          • I think it's a good template for debating issues. At its core I see the GC as a specialized focus group with a vested interest in Destiny. Building a working longterm relationship with Bungie and it's developers. The debating template serves as a nice set of rules to ensure debates don't descend into the trolling bitchfest some of the Feedback forum threads have evolved into.

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                            • My concern is it may be too overly-legalistic for those not bound by its rules and procedures. Unless Bungie lends teeth to this, I don't know how it can progress. The whole thing hinges upon authority, not self-governance. Either Bungie says, "This is the way we will handle it" or the community says "You have the consent of the governed." Neither seem all that likely. That said, it IS an attempt to take a hand in trying to control a bit of the acrimony that permeates the forums.

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                            • Your second to last paragraph really sums up the entire purpose of the council; that it is not self-serving but rather a place for ideas to live within order. I'll admit reading it seems complex but putting it into practice is not. Hopefully people will be constructive and realize, as you've stated, this is not written in stone and all thoughts are welcomed. That it's a team effort to build the walls in which we live, within them peace, out from them production. Simple shit for a mind willing.

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                              • I [b]still[/b] don't see what is stopping this from becoming a popularity contest.

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                                • I want you guys to imagine you are doing this for Mario. No can't imagine it? It's because the very idea you're thinking of is ridiculous.

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