originally posted in:Liberty Hub
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No fancy introduction on this one. I'm going to pose an argument.
I own a bike. If a man steals that bike, I can rightfully take it back immediately.
Can I take the bike back three weeks later, if I see it leaned up against the curb (assuming that I was unable to get it back as soon as it was stolen)? I certainly can. It's still my property.
Is there any amount of time that can pass that would make it morally impermissible for me to repossess my bike?
I would say no. It's my property, and time doesn't change that. The response to a crime does not have to become less severe over time.
Let's apply this idea to another situation.
A man attempts to kill a woman. Let's assume that deadly force becomes a reasonable response for the woman to take. In that instance, she can rightfully kill the man.
This is to say that the man has forfeit his right to life. He can rightfully die because of his own initiation of force.
Three weeks later, does the man still deserve to die? I would argue that he does. His right to life isn't magically restored over time. There's no logical basis for that.
No amount of time could pass where the man (assuming that he escapes all forms of retribution) suddenly doesn't deserve to die.
Discuss. Feel free to discuss the death penalty in general. It doesn't have to be confined to my example regarding moral permission.
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Edited by Ninja_Lazer: 9/8/2016 3:10:39 AM[quote] I would say no. It's my property, and time doesn't change that. The response to a crime does not have to become less severe over time. Let's apply this idea to another situation.[/quote] You have made a mistake here; put simply people aren't bikes. You have convoluted a defence of the two. More specifically, a specific law as it applies to people (I.E. a right to property) is not the same as a legal enforcement of punishment or an act of self-defence. Here is why: Self-defence is a justification of a criminal act (I.E. Homicide) based on the grounds of necessity; you must prove that your life was in danger (critically), or that you had a legitimate belief of such, and that the person responsible for said belief had the capacity to carry out such harm. If the person has moved on and is no longer in a position to harm you, there is no legitimate threat posed - here there is room for an argument of a perceived threat of mental/psychological trauma. So if a person pulled a knife out and robbed you, you would not [i][b]legally[/b][/i] be able to use self-defence as a justification for hunting them down 3 weeks later, approaching them, and ripping their throat out (Roadhouse-style). As for [i][b]morally[/b][/i] why this comparison is poor, well unlike bikes, people change in an epistemological sense. People have identities, bikes do not. Your bike (property) will remain yours unless it is legally transferred, sold, or reclaimed. People however, change their ideals, behaviours, etc. throughout the course of their lives. Depending on your definition of self (and identity), you may not even be punishing the same person depending on the interval between crime and punishment. Alternatively, ending a person's life eliminates all future actions of the person. A simple thought experiment: Person A commits a crime when they are 18 years old, at 21 they commit a second and third crime and are punished. If the death penalty is used, no further actions are taken. If the death penalty is not used, you can click the spoiler (note: unlike on the forums, we don't have access to such information at the time the choice is made). [spoiler] At age 42, the person saves a bus full of children[/spoiler] Since as humans we are limited, utilitarian calculus such as this is not possible in a morally reliable way. So while retribution for an action may seem desirable, it may end up doing more harm in the long run.