[quote] On the other hand, Destiny needed to be more accessible, and TTK brought that. It was too grindy and hardcore in Year 1 for many people, and was heavily criticized when the game was released.[/quote] I was talking about this very point with my clan last night. The thing about Y1 that made it so unfriendly wasn't the grind. The grind was good, particularly because you were grinding for things that made a difference. What made it bad was the fact that you were always under an artificial time crunch because EVERYTHING would go obsolete with the drop of the next DLC - meaning you simply couldn't play at your own pace or you would be left behind. Infusion solved a lot of that problem. Everything else they did in Y2 wasn't really necessary IMO.

[quote] The thing about Y1 that made it so unfriendly wasn't the grind. The grind was good, particularly because you were grinding for things that made a difference.[/quote] The endgame grind, I will agree, was fine as it was. The main grind that turned people away was getting for 20 to 25-26 in Vanilla. That transitioning point form story to endgame was painful; TTK had a much better Light curve in that transitional area. It still took some grinding, but you felt like you actually made progress. This is the kind of accessibility that I approve of, where casuals can make progress slowly and more hardcore players can make it quickly. Give them a chance to get interested in the endgame and maybe become a hardcore player if they so wish, or let them get to some endgame fun after a long time playing.

[quote] The endgame grind, I will agree, was fine as it was. The main grind that turned people away was getting for 20 to 25-26 in Vanilla. That transitioning point form story to endgame was painful; TTK had a much better Light curve in that transitional area. It still took some grinding, but you felt like you actually made progress.[/quote] I agree, the strikes did a really poor job of preparing you for taking on the endgame phase. That was an issue, but I don't think they needed to make the game easy-mode the way they did in Y2. The mark system would have worked better in Y1 to get vendor gear than the commendation system did in Y1/Vanilla. It also created a catch 22 wherein you had to raid to progress, but you had to progress to raid. That wasn't cool either, but like I said, they just went way too far the other direction in Y2. [quote]This is the kind of accessibility that I approve of, where casuals can make progress slowly and more hardcore players can make it quickly. Give them a chance to get interested in the endgame and maybe become a hardcore player if they so wish, or let them get to some endgame fun after a long time playing.[/quote] I actually don't object to people getting to max light outside of the raid. Its the fact that you can get all of the games best gear without having to step foot INTO the raid or nightfall that I object to. If you do the hardest content in the game, you should get the best rewards. But too much of the games best stuff was questified and the endgame gear was watered down to the point that it was really undesirable compared to most of the strike specific gear. This basically made Strikes and PVP the only relevant activities in Y2, which is why I tapered my play in Y2 and ultimately quit buying content.

Well damn, I can't argue with you anymore. Quit being so sensible and coherent! Jokes aside, I do love debates like this. We started out with stating opposing views/opinions and worked our way to a conclusion. I agree on you with everything now, and this has tempered some of my thoughts, so thanks for the insight. To take your last two issues, economy and the best rewards, I think Bungie is moving in a better direction with them. Economy needs to just be reworked in D2, but has been improved upon as the game has progressed. And the best looking (or craziest looking) gear will be coming only from raids after Age of Triumph launches. Might be too late for Destiny, but it signals a philosophy change that could be influential in D2.

[quote]And the best looking (or craziest looking) gear will be coming only from raids after Age of Triumph launches. [/quote] This is where we likely disagree. I don't think any of the AoT gear looks all that appealing. Nothing in Y2 looks as good to me as my IB gear I got early on in Y2. Too much bells and whistles, too much bling, and you just start to look like a joke. Think of a Harley Motorcycle with spinners LOL. It's just ridiculous. I also don't like the idea of mainly cosmetic gear for doing the hardest stuff in the game. Cosmetics are good, but you need something in addition to that, something that will reduce your grind in other phases. This is why elemental primaries were such a great reward in Y1. They reduced grind without harming PVP balance in the slightest. But you need more than great primary weapons to chase as treasures because people will then only do the raids for the primary weapons. The raids need more weapons like OG Black Hammer and Corrective measure. Weapons that were still top of their class for a while. Even stuff that are as powerful as G-horn should arguably only come from the raids and nightfall, since they aren't NECESSARY to do all the content in the game, but they do reduce grind. And that has been my point. RoI's raid gear may have been an improvement over Kings Fall, but the gear itself is only on par with everything available outside of the raid. And when your rewards are equally as good outside of the raid as they are inside the raid, you literally have NO incentive to do anything harder (i.e., no incentive to do the raid).

[quote]This is where we likely disagree.... too much bells and whistles, too much bling, and you just start to look like a joke. Think of a Harley Motorcycle with spinners LOL. It's just ridiculous.[/quote] But you did agree with me that it was crazy. Gotcha! [quote]I also don't like the idea of mainly cosmetic gear for doing the hardest stuff in the game.[/quote] Agreed, and I hope it won't be that way moving forwards. Just stating that, for now, you can't get such wild gear from anywhere else but the Raids. I do hope that D2 has some great Raid rewards that make people go back and raid every week to get them. Year 1 got that part spot-on.

Year ones grind also created rifts between players. Forever 29 and forever 31 were a real pain in the ass.

Forever 31 was a thing? Crota was so generous that I had all my characters to level 32 within 6 weeks. I understand it can be frustrating to feel stuck at a certain level, but even though I was in #forever 29, I was still able to get a TON of sweet loot along the way. Got FB and Corrective Measure for all 3 chars, basically at least 1 of every raid gun except foil and timepiece, Got an OG Suros and a Hardlight. I don't blame the grind for creating the rift though. I blame how Destiny was set up. You were always in an artificial time crunch because new DLC would render everything irrelevant so quickly that people who played at their own pace got left behind. Infusion solved TWO issues because it removed the artificial time constraints AND it allowed things to always carry forward. So again, I don't think the rest of what they did in Y2 was necessary.

What actually solved this issue was house of wolves and the etheric light system. That was the first time I was able to hit max lvl, though that was also when I switched to Xbox from ps4 and started playing with some friends from work and found my first clan.

But that was a temporary solution because EL wasn't carried forward. I understand your point, but I think infusion was a better long-term solution than EL. Although I will say that infusion isn't even my preferred progression system. I would much prefer having a purely exp-based or mote-infusion system instead.