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4/26/2019 5:57:45 PM
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[quote]Nerfing is never the answer[/quote]
I'll post this hypothetical situation to you. Say there was a primary weapon in this game that had infinite range and ammo, and could kill in one hit to any part of the body with no charge time. It could be responsible for every weapon kill in the game and you'd say that every other gun should be as good as it?
Nerfing isn't always the answer but it is entire necessary and people are afraid to admit it. They get so attached to one or two weapons, overuse them, then act like the gun is perfectly in line with others and act like they had nothing to do with it.
The best primary weapon choice at range is a Pulse Rifle, no question, but that's not because they're broken but rather due to Scout Rifles heavily underperforming. Solution is to buff Scouts.
The dominance of Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten cannot wholly be explained by other weapons being bad and, as it was mentioned in the TWAB, they rewarded you hugely for using them no differently than any other Hand Cannon.
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That is a very unlikely scenario, one that would never happen and is irrelevant. I stand by nerfing is never the answer when other weapons are clearly overlooked and issues discarded such as bloom, which I mentioned as well. It’s just more convenient and safe to apply a nerf in this case than it is to buff other weapons or archetypes. Your example about pulses can be applied to other weapon classes and hand cannons, remove bloom, see how Ace and TLW perform, I bet the cry for nerfing of LH/NF would dissipate.
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[quote]It’s just more convenient and safe to apply a nerf in this case than it is to buff other weapons or archetypes[/quote] Everyone here knows Bungie have a terrible history with balance, but you're criticising them for doing the right thing and being safe? If they buffed everything to the level of those two guns, then Special Weapons would be in danger. They already kill faster than some Fusion Rifles can charge fully, making everything that good would entirely devalue Snipers and Shotguns. If that was to be remedied, then Special Weapons would be encroaching on the turf of Heavy Weapons. It's a very slippery slope that people don't stop to consider because they don't want to see their favourite weapon be nerfed. [quote]Your example about pulses can be applied to other weapon classes and hand cannons, remove bloom, see how Ace and TLW perform, I bet the cry for nerfing of LH/NF would dissipate.[/quote] I'll rephrase that for you. "Remove bloom and see Hand Cannons get even further away from other primary weapons". A slight bloom reduction for 150s would be more than enough and it wouldn't affect post-nerf LH/NF. You can't reasonably suggest that Hand Cannons are in more need of tuning than Scout Rifles, Auto Rifles, Sidearms and SMGs (that aren't The Recluse) because to do so is just flat-out wrong. Are you not tired of Hand Cannons being the best weapon? Don't get me wrong, I know they have the highest skill ceiling but it's just boring. My preferred loadout would be Scout Rifle and Fusion Rifle - Scout Rifles haven't been in the limelight as a whole weapon class...…...ever. Fusion Rifles haven't been good Special Weapons since Vanilla D1 and the days of the 77 Wizard, outside of one or two outliers. Hand Cannons have been top for most of the game's lifespan, be it Thorn/TLW/Hawkmoon in D1Y1, Eyasluna in Y2, The Palindrome in Y3, and now Luna's Howl/Not Forgotten. It's time for a change.
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In your hypothetical scenario more then likely every gun would be able to ohk body already. Unlimited ammo would be its "broken perk". That's when you come up with perks like tracking ricochet rounds that can ohk to the body but take charge time to fire to counteract unlimited ammo and add in weapon diversity. Anywho back to reality. Nf/luna were already pretty balanced. They were high risk high reward. Ace is leagues better. People don't use ace though because of bloom. If bloom was simply removed that would've drastically opened up the meta. But buffs are apparently hard.
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Edited by Hawpy: 4/26/2019 6:46:34 PMSorry, I thought you were the person who I replied to with my first comment, disregard the stuff about you being on PC.
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[quote]In your hypothetical scenario more then likely every gun would be able to ohk body already. Unlimited ammo would be its "broken perk".[/quote] I never stated that. Seeing as you need clarification, every other gun behaves like guns currently in the game, apart from the specific outlier I wanted you to think about. [quote]Nf/luna were already pretty balanced. They were high risk high reward.[/quote] As someone has already said to you in another reply, you're on PC, an entirely different landscape. On console, i.e. for the vast majority of players, Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten are as imbalanced as possible. There are no-risk, high reward. They're in the best HC archetype available and they work around all of that archetype's natural weaknesses, being low Range and low damage per shot. [quote]People don't use ace though because of bloom. If bloom was simply removed that would've drastically opened up the meta. But buffs are apparently hard.[/quote] That would barely do anything to the meta in terms of opening it up, if anything it might make it worse. The removal of bloom would only encourage the use of Hand Cannons. You don't see people complaining that Pulse Rifles or Scout Rifles suffer from bloom, do you?
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That wouldn't happen. 1 of 2 things would happen. They would play test and catch it before it goes out the door or they would catch it and reduce its damage and everything else in less then a week. They wouldn't intentionally release a weapon with unlimited ammo that could ohk to the body in a slow TTK game like this. I use ace here on console and poop on people with luna/nf. They have to commit to the kill where I can tag them dip to a new angle rendering the magnificent howl perk useless and clean them up with 2 more shots where they have to fire 3 more since the luna/nf just became a regular old 180. The problem is bad players stay in one spot face tanking damage not trying to improve what so ever and want to be able to slug it out because they don't know how to do anything else. Removing bloom was one example of a buff that would open up the meta. I could give you more that are extremely simple if you'd like.
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[quote]That wouldn't happen. 1 of 2 things would happen. They would play test and catch it before it goes out the door or they would catch it and reduce its damage and everything else in less then a week. They wouldn't intentionally release a weapon with unlimited ammo that could ohk to the body in a slow TTK game like this. [/quote] That's why the situation was hypothetical. If such a weapon existed in such circumstances, could anyone possibly oppose a nerf? [quote]I use ace here on console and poop on people with luna/nf. They have to commit to the kill where I can tag them dip to a new angle rendering the magnificent howl perk useless and clean them up with 2 more shots where they have to fire 3 more since the luna/nf just became a regular old 180.[/quote] I really can't stand people who use that as a defence of the guns. My weapon of choice is a 150RPM Scout Rifle, one of the most notoriously bad archetypes of any weapon in the game. I beat people who have LH/NF with Transfiguration at close-mid range, does that mean that Transfiguration is the better gun? No, it usually means I'm the better player. Take two players of equal skill, one with a Pinnacle Hand Cannon and one with any other Primary weapon. In the vast majority of circumstances, the player with LH/NF will win by a considerable margin.
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Edited by FataLVisioN_Oo: 4/26/2019 7:30:18 PMIt wouldn't get nerfed. They would fix there eff up. You can't stand people out playing luna/nf by using its perks/archetype against them? To me that's called being a smart player. I'm not going to try and slug it out with a NF/luna that's just being bad/a idiot. No they won't. Like i've already said a smart player will out play the person using luna/nf by using those weapons 180 archetype/magnificent howl perk against them. Luna/nf is 4 crits to kill once they miss/the 4 second timer runs out. Bad players? They don't want to improve or adapt so they love seeing nerfs. Means they can just potato around in a more potato friendly environment.
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[quote] You can't stand people out playing luna/nf by using its perks/archetype against them? To me that's called being a smart player. I'm not going to try and slug it out with a NF/luna that's just being bad/a idiot. [/quote] No, what I can't understand is people saying "I beat them with this gun, so they're not OP". A player who is of equal intelligence and skill isn't going to let you keep changing angles while they stay in the same spot. At the end of the day, an average 180 is still a better choice than an average 140 anyway. If you want to bring Range into it, a player of your skill isn't going to challenge Ace of Spades with Luna's Howl at range, so that point is invalid. [quote]Bad players? They don't want to improve or adapt so they love seeing nerfs. Means they can just potato around in a more potato friendly environment.[/quote] Did you ever consider that people don't want to be forced to use a particular set of weapons in order to compete? No one wants to be severely punished just for wanting to use a weapon that isn't top of the meta, those two guns will punish you for using any gun that isn't them. The exclusivity just makes it a "rich get richer" scenario. If the people defending these guns are so good at the game, then they shouldn't need the guns to farm other players. I get that players who just got the gun will want to use it but I consistently play against no-lifes with 15k+ kills on LH/NF and will sweat like their life depends on it in Quick Play.
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I never said the other player would be standing still. Luna/nf become any old 4 tapping 180 once you miss 🤷♂️ ace 3 taps regardless. Both players can play ring around the rosey with each other all day but the ace will eventually win due to raw damage output. So what are they going to do sit there? Anytime people get into luna range I just ohk them with a fusion 🤷♂️ They don't have to use a particular set of weapons to compete. As i've said numerous times I don't use my NF and compete just fine. You can literally use whatever if you play to your weapons strengths and out think your opponent. Standing there face tanking bullets lost AF wondering why you died like most players do in the crucible won't help you against whatever weapon you are going up against. Those players literally punish themselves. The guys I got NF with when it first came out have 20k kills on theirs... I have 1200.
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[quote]I never said the other player would be standing still. Luna/nf become any old 4 tapping 180 once you miss 🤷♂️ ace 3 taps regardless. Both players can play ring around the rosey with each other all day but the ace will eventually win due to raw damage output. [/quote] Ace also fires more slowly and needs to hit three headshots to kill in 3, a regular 180 kills in 2 headshots and 2 bodyshots. More likely that the 180 would win due to spamming shots that don't need to be precise. [quote]So what are they going to do sit there? Anytime people get into luna range I just ohk them with a fusion 🤷♂️ They don't have to use a particular set of weapons to compete. As i've said numerous times I don't use my NF and compete just fine.[/quote] You're using the next-best weapon and a Special weapon to beat it, I wouldn't say that you're really proving you can beat it with anything. Take the next Does Not Compute Shaxx gives you and pair it with the lowest impact Fusion Rifle you can find, then tell me you're going do just as well. Believe me, you won't.
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Edited by FataLVisioN_Oo: 4/26/2019 8:28:25 PMIt doesn't matter how slow it shoots. You tag them once they tag you once you make them miss they have to tag you 3 more times where you only have to tag them twice. I use this tactic at high level comp all the time. 180s do have to be precise. I use what works with my playstyle. That's the point. You can use whatever as long as you play to its strengths. It's called adapting. I'll watch potatoes ape in with a blast furnace with is not what that weapon is intended for and get deleted.. that's called not adapting your play style. I've used high impact scouts and low impact fusions and have done just fine. Used to love running the last wish fusion with backup plan. I still use it on close range maps. It's called adapting. I don't use the same loadout for every map because the same weapons aren't good on every map.
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[quote]It doesn't matter how slow it shoots. You tag them once they tag you once you make them miss they have to tag you 3 more times where you only have to tag them twice. I use this tactic at high level comp all the time. 180s do have to be precise.[/quote] If that's how you're presenting it, then the enemy isn't even on the same level. You can't simply incorporate "make them miss" as a tactic of high level PvP, imply that you will hit every single shot and that the enemy won't try to do the same to you. Similarly, you aren't going to be able to use those weapons at a high level, they won't even be able to touch the standard loadouts. Some weapons have strengths that players will build themselves around countering, while others simply do their own job while also doing the job of another weapon that should be geared towards it. Call it adapting or whatever you like, not using LH/NF against someone who has it puts you at a notable disadvantage that you won't be able to overcome if they're as good as you because there is no primary counter to it and you're relying on them missing. End of.
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Edited by FataLVisioN_Oo: 4/26/2019 11:50:44 PMThe players at 3000-5500 are all the top players. I beat them out using luna by doing exactly what i've told you. Not sure what else to tell ya man 🤷♂️ I guess the top players are just trash then. You can't use those weapons at a high level? Says who? I have and do. By doing again... exactly what i've said multiple times. You are flat out wrong that's about all I can tell ya. Sounds like you need practice. Seems like you crutch on nerfs instead of improving as a player.
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[quote]The players at 300-5500 are all the top players. I beat them out using luna by doing exactly what i've told you. Not sure what else to tell ya man 🤷♂️ I guess the top players are just trash then. [/quote] Well, I'm at 3000 Glory...……...so either you're wrong about that Glory range being an accurate representation of "top players" or you'd consider me to be among them. My whole MO is using bad weapons, there's nothing less interesting or enjoyable than using the same weapons as everyone else. I derive my satisfaction in PvP by winning with a disadvantage. Seems like, for most people, it's winning and acting as if their advantage (Luna's Howl) played no part in it.
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Once you hit 3k the player pool drops off tremendously.
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That's to be expected, there's very little to go for beyond 2100 and the people who get between 2100 and 3000 have likely made it there by helping others get Pinnacle weapons. The people that get to 5500 will do it every season and can only really do it for bragging rights. Having said that, I don't think Glory is an accurate representation of skill. I'm aware that they could have paid for it, but I've played against many people with Not Forgotten that can't even maintain a positive K/D. On the other hand, there will be people who are more than good enough to go deep into the Glory ranks but are intimidated by the Competitive playlist itself.
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You can't really help people get pinnacle weapons.... you can but you are just making it harder on them in the long run. Once you hit mythic pretty much every team will be 5500 players. Glory is a pretty good representation of skill. The lower level people are potatoes. 300-3500 better. Mythic on up it gets pretty crazy.
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I got two of my friends, who are bang average players, from 0 Glory to 2100 in a few sessions. I'd call that helping.
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Were you already 2100 when they started at 0? That's the kind of helping i'm referring to. You'd be in the 4000s while they are 1700-2000 playing against people way out of their skill level. It's relatively easy to carry people from 0-2100 when you are still low in glory yourself.
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We got to 800ish together, I went on my own and made it past 2100 then helped them once I'd got my Recluse this season.
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That's not to bad then. Depends on them as well. I've double carried people that were legit 400 glory players... that was a nightmare. They were getting destroyed by 2100 potatoes.. 3k players would've just exploited how bad they were.
