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5/3/2019 6:28:54 PM
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Upcoming LH and NF nerf

I'd like to pose a question to all, those in favour and those against.... what is the hoped outcome from begging for, and now getting, the nerf on LH and NF? While I can sort of understand player frustration in getting killed by a weapon over and over and to see nothing but one or two weapons, this is the very point of destiny, to have a weapon that excels in a certain situation. Take into account that the game is a loot based shooter. The very point is to level up, increase your light level, get the best rolls/weapons to allow you to make the game easier. Look at D1, everyone scrambled for the gally to make raids easier. Crotas end dropped and everyone craved black hammer. Then kings fall came out and you could not find a lfg post not demanding touch of malice. Look at the start of D2 and you could not find a leviathan raid post that didnt require coldheart. The very nature of the game, random rolls and different weapons, is that there will always be something that outperforms everything else in a certain situation. Yet in all my time playing destiny, there were no petitions to nerf touch of malice. Never did I see anyone begging for gally to be removed from the game. Not once have I ever heard people complaining about black hammer doing too much dps. So why, when a weapon excels in crucible, does the community call for nerfs. Doctrine of passing got battered. Last word in D1 was wrecked. Mida and uriels in D2 caused a blanket high cal rounds nerf. Now we've got LH and NF running the crucible. What's wrong with that? It's a gun, in the game, obtainable by anyone willing to put the effort and time in (just like 1KV and jotuun). So what if they excel at killing guardians? Something will always do better than everything else. Nerf LH and NF and in comes recluse and mountaintop loadout, then what? Nerf recluse? Ok then, in comes vigilance wing again. Nerf that too? Sure thing, in comes redrix. See a pattern? There will always be, and I really do mean always, a weapon that outperforms in crucible. The loot system will always churn out a "God tier" weapon and when it gets nerfed, the number 2 weapon steps up and so on and so on. The solution to this, is to (forgive me) get better. Learn counters. Adapt. LH wrecks up close, so hang back with a pulse. Shotgun running right towards you, back track out of his range while shooting. Jotuun hitting you from across the map, jump. It's really that simple. You dont ask for 1KV to be removed from the game because you can't get it to drop. So why call for LH to be nerfed/removed just because you can't get it? Tl;dr Nerfing weapons repeatedly won't cover up your lack of talent so why ruin/devalue achievements of those who got them. This is not a salty message, it's not supposed to be argumentative, it's a genuine question. What is your ideal outcome from the nerf? Dont just say you want it nerfed. Please give a genuine reason, if you can, that doesn't essentially boil down to "its unfair that I got killed".

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  • The gun doesn’t make the player. The player makes the gun. If you were good at using it before the nerf, you’ll be fine. If you weren’t good, well ask for your money back. [spoiler]Not talking about getting money back from Bungie[/spoiler]

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    • Bad logic. What if bungie released a hand canon that one-hit-killed to the body every time? Everyone would agree that was OP. So Luna’s is certainly not that bad, but many feel like it falls into that category, rather than just being powerful. I assume bungies telemetry told them that as well. The real issue is bungies inability to nerf anything without it becoming useless. So people hear “nerf” and all they think is “great I just got my gun taken away” This doesn’t mean that things should never be nerfed, or that everything else should be buffed instead. That would be stupid. I had suggested a stability/aim assist nerf for Luna’s but we’ll see how this works out. I have also suggested a 2-buffs-for-each-nerf rule. Might help to keep things positive

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      • You actually answered all your own questions with great points. 1. Looter shooter where you get the best rolls you can to benefit a player in pvp. Not all players can get these weapons/rolls. When you lock things behind other players, you lose players. Proven throughout all of gaming. 2. Bungie has never supported weapons with advantages. They have always maintained a sense of balance. You listed many, and there are many more rewards that lost their power feeling due to pvp. Just because, for the first time, a pvp reward is getting reworked does not make it more special over any other weapon or player. 3. Trials. A large part of the community wants it back... The nerf is a good sign we are getting it back due to this adjustment. Absolutely no way it could come back with said weapons with said advantages. If we are to believe the leaked information.. this next season is setting up and leading to the return of trials as well as next seasons story arc for pve.. 4. What truly matters at the end of the day for bungie is the attach rate of the players in their game.. It is at an all time low. Players are not happy.. and the loudest part of that is due to said rewards. Yes, the dream fix would be to adjust all other weapons... but that fix would take a lot of work due to all scenarios to go with all the perks etc in the game. So they are taking the best steps they can. 150s are getting buff with these weapons.. this buffs skill gaps and rewards better players. Exactly what destiny has been about.

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        • Because it artificially and exponentially reduced the ttk in pvp and as a result had very few counters. Combined with the horrible, albeit non-existent QP, matchmaking it has ruined the pvp experience for the mid and lower tiers. With that said, they should have only adjusted pvp not affected it's pve performance.

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        • Edited by Thirteen Soul: 5/4/2019 5:11:33 PM
          Honestly hate most of this community. We can't have anything nice because of all the -blam!- and crying in PVP

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          • The problem is the TTK being better than every primary. Because of that they were used by everyone who has it. Also the ease of use factored in on console. If a gun is [i]too effective[/i] against others, they will eventually get nerfed

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            • Of course OP is a hunter main with Luna

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              • Disagreed with it from the start. Sure they’re powerful, but they’re not easy to get, either - they [i]should[/i] be powerful. A lot of people said there should never be one weapon to dominate... Yeah good luck with that. In any shooter. Ever. Unless all the guns are EXACTLY THE SAME with different skins. In which case why bother making multiple skins? Just make everyone use the same gun if we can’t have variety in performance... But then everyone will complain it’s boring... People don’t seem to get the message. Bungie can’t win in this situation. If they keep things as they are, people will leave because they need to feel on an equal playing field. If they ‘fix’ the ‘problems’, people will leave because there’s no point. I’m certain leaving things as they are would keep a larger player base, of people who are their true target audience, playing the game. What they need to stop is catering to the vast minority who, bluntly, hate having to play the game. So a message to those people: Destiny has always been a grinding game. If you don’t want to grind, and suffer through hours of playing for what you want, you won’t enjoy it. Don’t come and ruin it for those of us who [i]do enjoy it.[/i] Frankly, that’s just selfish.

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                • PvP in a loot based game like this will always end up this way if PvP and PvE are not completely separated. The real solution would require a complete overhaul to the system. In its current state the goal of asking for a nerf is a hope to change the meta in some way since it’s been stale for quite some time. The best solution to all of this would be consistent updates and changes designed to alter the meta on a regular basis. But there’s the problem with random rolled loot and pinnacle loot that people grind for. They’ll be upset anytime the meta shift decreases the utility of their favorite options. So personally, if I had asked for it (I didn’t), I would like to see the meta shift altogether instead of just nerfing two weapons, nerf hand cannons and shotguns this month, bring them back in a couple months after we had buffs that made auto/fusion, smg/sniper, etc etc etc metas for awhile. In other words continually rotate the meta (monthly, bi-monthly?) so that a wide variety of load outs get an opportunity to shine for a time. Since Bungie isn’t going to put forth that much effort the only way to get a change to a stale meta is to ask for nerfs and hope they get applied in a way that actually will change things. In this case the meta isn’t going to shift more than an inch or two.

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                • They’ll still be good in the hands of players who know how to use them. Personally I don’t necessarily think of it as a nerf, rather a tweak. They’ll be shooting slower sure, but still gonna be a precision frame, hitting as hard as Thorn. Not to mention Magnificent Howl only doing bonus damage to the body? People are gonna be complaining about getting killed by a body shot from across the map lol.

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                • I think I'll still be good in the hands of experts 😁

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                  • I'm mostly excited to use a longer ranged, harder hitting, 150bpm hand cannon. I play on console so I know how bad luna's and nf have been and with them being 180s and having almost no recoil, they are very easy guns to use on console and putting those in the hands of good players (if they worked for them) was not a good idea. And I love to use hand cannons, I prefer to use slower firing, harder hitting ones like the first curse in d1, so ive always used, thorn or ace and I love using duke. Not much is even gonna change for me, I shot my luna's like a 150 mostly, anyways because headshots.

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                    • Things excelling in the Crucible actively ruins the environment. Especially when it’s such a small amount of guns that are, honestly, overperforming,

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                      • They're too easy to use for far too much reward. How often is it that you see so many people refuse to use a weapon because of how cheap and unfair it feels? When someone pops off with a sniper rifle, it's easy to get mad, but you're getting mad because he's playing well. When someone "pops off" with Lunas, it's not anything worth mentioning, because that's what's to be expected. I love Sturm and Drang, but I cannot use Sturm and Drang in the current meta. My Sturm shoots so much slower than Lunas, which normally would be fine, but because of Mag Howl, they kill in the same amount of bullets. I cannot win the gunfight if I'm up against a competent player. You could argue that 150s shoot faster and kill in the same amount of bullets, but it's not to the degree where it's unreasonable to outgun them. Plus, over one in ten kills comes from Lunas Howl, only getting worse in the comp playlist. As a player who loves diversity, it's maddening to just see Lunas Howl in every single match. I'm at a bracket in comp where literally 49/50 players use LH or NF, they're not incentivised to use other weapons because of the inherent benefits of those 2 guns. They're so prevalent that I'd be willing to bet my own life that if I went into comp right now, every match would have at least 5 of them. It's predictable, and it's boring. You do make a good point about how something always rises to the top though, and I think it's because of poor balancing on Bungie's part. They should be able to see that alongside those two guns dominating, there are guns that are literally never used and give them some love. Ideally, there would literally never be a meta, every gun would be viable in some way. I do believe that it's possible, but we would need much more frequent balance patches. Autos, bows, 150s, 110s, SMGs, Scouts, they're all being outclassed, and they just don't get any love. There needs to be a constant ebb and flow of buffs and nerfs, metas should never be allowed to last for 8 months with barely any intervention.

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                      • I don't even know if going after Luna's and not forgotten is a good idea anymore tbh

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                        • As a PC player I can only imagine the frustration you console players feel with this whole Luna's and NF stuff but you also have to realize they are not the problem the mechanics of bloom and other recoil on hand cannons like ACE and TLW are and should be addressed. as a player who earned my NF and Luna's I am sad the nerf is coming but I posted in another thread some data about supposed Meta or gun usage for each platform and it shows that the numbers prove that mechanics like bloom and recoil on other weapons should be and need to be addressed and Bungie is just standing by or secretly working on and or not saying anything if they are working on a fix. Data real quick is Xbox and PS is luna's/NF combined at 64% usage while PC Luna's/NF is generously is 10% Ace on PC is 68% usage and Ace on console is less than 10% for a gun that is both better all around and has more perks than any other gun.

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                        • Not played in a while but shit pvp players will always cry until they get what they want in this game.

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                          • I called for comp pinnacle weapons to be banned in qp (not in weekly pl or rumble) instead of them getting nerfed but its too late now. The crybabies dont want them banned in qp, they want them nerfed to shit cuz they cant get them.

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                            • Metas change.

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                            • Balance in the crucible. Next question. [spoiler]The whole “asking for a getting needs” premise is false in the first place. If there wasn’t data to back up a change they wouldn’t make one. It’s the same for all nerfs. Players gave feedback that Queenbreaker was too strong in Gambit. Bungie investigated it had twice as much aim assist as intended. So they made balance changes. It didn’t get nerfed, it got changed to what it was supposed to be. [/spoiler]

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                              • Edited by RPColten: 5/3/2019 11:44:46 PM
                                [quote]So why, when a weapon excels in crucible, does the community call for nerfs.[/quote] ..because unlike in raids or strikes, an overbearing gear item can create a negative experience for other players. PvP is not a case of you the player against mindless AI bots. It is one player performing [i]directly against[/i] another player. There is a [u]need[/u] for weapons and armour in PvP to be not so potent that they become too advantageous to the wielders. For another it also diminishes the potential challenge of competing against opposing players (save for if those players are also using said items). As a note, NoelGhallajhorn was nerfed due to two factors: Ease with which it cleared activities or encounters meant to be difficult, and the communities obsession with making it almost mandatory for creating a group. I would say the LH/NF situation (on console) feels/felt like a PvP mirror case of the Screaming Horn. [quote]Now we've got LH and NF running the crucible. What's wrong with that? It's a gun, in the game, obtainable by anyone willing to put the effort and time in (just like 1KV and jotuun). So what if they excel at killing guardians?[/quote] For one thing, 1KV and Jotuun don't present an overbearing advantage that makes using them feel like an obligation. Secondly, obtaining weapons like 1KV and Jotuun only asks the player to commit time to the game. Obtaining them is as much a matter of random chance as it is time. Yes the Crucible items and Raid items share an aspect of team-play and coordination, but the games asks comparatively very little for Raid completions. You must only clear a modest hurdle of gear selection, and then the main limiting factor is time to run the activities. LH and NF don't share that same kind of acquisition, since they are based around competing against other players directly. No amount of leveling up and spending time in the game can get a person closer to obtaining LH, let alone NF. [quote]What is your ideal outcome from the nerf?[/quote] The ideal outcome is that they no longer present an overbearing presence in every single match that must be contended with specifically. The ideal outcome is that players no longer feel obligated to obtain and use it for a fair chance at winning.

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                              • They dont nerf because people are complaining. They are looking at kill data and usage stats. Looks like they found it too good or way overused.

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                                • I think it will make pvp more accessible and enjoyable for the majority of the player base. Having fun in the crucible is damn near impossible for those who aren't already wrecking in pvp. For me it feels like a big chunk of the game is inaccessible right now because of the top tier weapons. Playing crucible is just shameful for me and I haven't had a chance to do a single raid in d2 cause I don't have all the weapons people require in lfg. I never manage to get any weapons like this before they get nerfed so idk what it's like to play with them....but I do know what it's like to just not play pvp cause you know you don't have a chance. Especially when you have to succeed in pvp in order to have a comparable load out to your opponents. All that being said, I think instead of nerfing the weapons....nerf the requirements to get them. Make them accessible through pve or RNG. In that scenario I don't think it would change much for the already dominant pvp players, but would make crucible at least somewhat enjoyable for less skilled pvp players again. Also, with a dropping player base the matchmaking is really broken, which I bet has an effect on this situation. When low skill players are playing each other luck is more of a factor than load out...but right now the best are playing the worst and it just seems like it would be more balanced if low skill and high skill players had the same chance of getting op weapons, or if nobody got them. Then pvp would be skill based rather than op weapon based. I think the only solutions for this would be A. Nerfing the weapons B. Making them easier to obtain for everyone Or C. Fixing matchmaking and adding in new maps that allow for other loadouts to be useful I couldn't tell you why more people asked for the nerf than the other options....but I'd bet the nerf is the easiest and fastest solution available.

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                                  • I will give you my perspectives of guns in a shooter/looter game. Crucible is more or less an important part of this game to just about everyone who paid for the game, if I can establish that then I will continue in that direction. So, Bungie created guns that excel (over-excel wouldn’t be exaggerating) in Crucible, and as (maybe) side-effect, those guns effectively slow down other players’ effort/progression of obtaining the same said guns on top of being slowed down from losing (for various reasons related to participating in Crucible). Here are my questions, why are there pinnacle weapons that excel in Crucible could only be obtained by certain players with specific playing styles? Why can’t another or several “pinnacle” weapons obtained by average players with reasonable amount of effort excel in Crucible at similar level? Would you call spamming skip grenades a form of Hunter’s ability that excels in Crucible? Things that should excel in Crucible are what draw players to participate and more importantly having fun not be frustrated, penalized, t-bagged or checking what guns a 4 stack team are using to decide whether to stay or quit!

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                                    • Destiny PvP has always operated under the concept of "Shifting Metas", meaning certain weapons are OP for a while and most people are fine with that. The problem comes when such weapons remain at the top for a large amount of time. The more time they do, the more people switch swides (between supporting it and wanting it gone). Given the fact LH/NF have been meta for the past 9 months now (longest meta there has ever been in D1 and D2), there's no surprise a lot of people are sick and tired of them. Time for a change.

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                                      • Edited by WulfPak666: 5/3/2019 8:25:13 PM
                                        I'm actually ok with the change to a 150 rpm since it's keeping the recoil and whatnot. But don't change Mag Howl. I'm sorry, but if you can manage to get into a 2 v 1, pace your shots and 2 tap someone before the two of them kill you, you deserve it. Remember, a 150 shoots slower than a 180, so what are the odds you'll be able to do this as easily? Not to mention this is a rare occurrence. Even when watching top tier players I rarely see them get these magical 2 taps as often as Bungie makes it seem like they do. It's basically the equivalent to people complaining that they got "1 shot by hawkmoon" when that was so rare nobody even thought it was possible for almost 5 months. Keep Mag Howl as it functions now. 😊

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