There is no room to 'get gud' in relation to supers or guns like the Lunas howl. Anything like a super or the Lunas howl is basically the same as a heavy weapon and has almost 0 counter play to actually 'beating' unless the entire strategy is run from the person. Which hardly ever works out if they have a roaming super, and is an ineffective strategy to win a match if you are going against someone with Lunas. Honestly the most irritating thing is that I have never gotten the Lunas howl. My highest glory was heroic 3 (or 2.. I forget) and I had been going against Lunas ever since I was in Guardian. Its really irritating to be 2 tapped over and over by people that have a gun that is locked behind a rank that I struggle to get to both because of skill, and because the game keeps putting me up against 4 stacks with LH

Luna's Howl rarely two-taps people. This is a very situational thing because the perk only lasts 3 seconds. Luna's is a gun that rewards skill and precison. If you don't hit 2 headshots in a row, it's just any other 180 RPM handcannon. I agree that the guns were too dominant, but not because the guns themselves needed to be nerfed, but rather because other guns needed to be buffed. On PC, Luna's and NF barely crack the top 5 best handcannons. Why? Because on PC, bloom and recoil aren't a factor. You cannot consistently hit your shots with non-180 handcannons on console. Bungie knows this, but they refuse to address it because there are too many ignorant people in the community that don't understand the very game they complain about. These people are still in the minority, but Bungie caters to them despite the repeated failure and community backlash stemming from their decisions catering to this group. They design pvp for people that mainly play pve, vs the other way around.

Luna does not reward skill. It rewards playing normally.

How is landing two headshots in a row not skillful?

Yeah of course hitting two headshots in a row with a gun that has virtually no recoil and one of the highest aim assist in the game takes skill. Of course.

That's all true, but it still isn't "easy" to land those shots. Especially against better players. ALL the weapons in D1 had this much aim assist, yet no one complained that primaries in D1 were too easy to use. It's just the fact that in D2 aim assist was globally reduced and now, as I stated before, other primaries need to have the same consistency as 180's. That being accuracy, recoil, and AA.

Even if they globally increased aim assist, luna and NF would still probably stay kings thanks to there very fast ttk.

Nope. This has been proven wrong on PC. There is no AA, bloom, or a need to control recoil on PC. Luna's only has 5% of all primary kills despite having a faster TTK than all of them but The Last Word. This is an overused argument by people that don't understand the complexities of the sandbox and simply think that TTK is the only factor in a weapon's effectiveness.

And you don’t understand that it’s not just that on pc there is less recoil and bloom. People on pc have better mobility, can hit shots better and have an entirely different sandbox. Just removing bloom on other handcannons and increasing aim assist wouldn’t change that much on console because of the controller’s limitations.

What does increased mobility have to do with the effectiveness of primary weapons? If we were talking about shotguns or SMG's that would make sense but I fail to see how this is applicable. And no, PC does not have a separate sandbox. Go watch any good pvp player on YT talk about the Luna's nerf and they will tell you the problem is bloom and recoil

Not every weapon in the game needs to be in line with the top options. You are literally playing a MMOFPS game, that is also a looter-shooter, and expect most weapons to be in line with top standards. The point of the game in terms of gameplay is to chase the weapons that work for your playstyle, or to chase the weapons that seek to make the game become easier. This exact mindset is why I hate Destiny 2 in terms of PvP. The community is so uptight about making this game balanced when it isn't supposed to be. This is exactly why I hated games like MW3, because the developers tried so hard to bring balance to games that weren't meant to be. This game isn't an Esports for a reason.

That makes no sense. How can you use a weapon that fits your playstyle if it can't compete with 3-4 weapons at the top? You can't ask for variety while in the same breath campaigning against balance... If Destiny isn't supposed to be balanced, why does Bungie ever update the sandbox at all? Why do they have a ranked playlist? Bungie was in talks with MLG in Year 3 of D1... Bungie -blam!-ed it up with the sticky grenade and sidearm meta, and now D2. There was a big competitive scene in D1. Still is to an extent. [quote]This exact mindset is why I hate Destiny 2 in terms of PvP[/quote] That's it, right there. You don't even like pvp. So why do you care? More importantly, why should your opinion be considered over those of the actual pvp community? You know, the people that actually play it... Just because your idea of a good pvp experience is using cheesy weapons and abilities that allow you to kill better players doesn't mean that's what the pvp community wants. Because it's not.

[quote]That makes no sense. How can you use a weapon that fits your playstyle if it can't compete with 3-4 weapons at the top? You can't ask for variety while in the same breath campaigning against balance... If Destiny isn't supposed to be balanced, why does Bungie ever update the sandbox at all? Why do they have a ranked playlist? Bungie was in talks with MLG in Year 3 of D1... Bungie -blam!-ed it up with the sticky grenade and sidearm meta, and now D2. There was a big competitive scene in D1. Still is to an extent. [quote]This exact mindset is why I hate Destiny 2 in terms of PvP[/quote] That's it, right there. You don't even like pvp. So why do you care? More importantly, why should your opinion be considered over those of the actual pvp community? You know, the people that actually play it... Just because your idea of a good pvp experience is using cheesy weapons and abilities that allow you to kill better players doesn't mean that's what the pvp community wants. Because it's not.[/quote] 1) Absolutely not. Are you dumb? Are you telling me that their isn't a single weapon in a certain underwhelming class that isn't useful to a degree? A good player can use any weapon effectively in terms of PvP, and the fact that a certain 3-4 weapons are at the top is kind of the point. They are at the top for a damn reason. Bungie obviously knew this. Variety is [i]already in the game.[/i] The problem is the way it is being shown. Even then, why would variety matter in a [i]PvP realm[/i]? It is dominated by something called... a [i]meta.[/i] Meta's are natural in games like this. This just shows you have no clue how these games work. 2) Why does Destiny have a Ranked playlist? Did you fűcking read my damn post? I made it clear that I am [i]against[/i] a Ranked playlist in a game like this, and the idea that this should be in the game is a little ridiculous. Why does Bungie update the sandbox? Again, did you know how these games work? Meta's are a thing in games like this as to shift the way the sandbox is played. Get used to it. Again, have you ever played a video game like this before? 3) Bungie was in talks with MLG? Of course, and that is why I laughed at this and knew it wouldn't work. Funny enough, the majority of the community was against this, especially since the [i]core[/i] mechanics of the shooting were inconsistent. Again, a game like this shouldn't be an Esport. That isn't a bad thing either, and most of my favorite PvP shooters are not Esports games. Me saying that Destiny isn't an Esports wasn't an insult, if anything, it was a compliment. 4) Do you have difficulties in putting two things together or some point? Did you really come out of that quote thinking that I always hated the PvP, and that because of it, my criticism isn't worthy of being looked at? I never hated the PvP until this point, and that is why I am literally talking about it right now. I have a certain way that I would like it to function, and that is all that is required of me to be able to comment on it. Do you honestly think I want the approval of those who can speak about it anyways? This mindset is exactly why the majority of Reddit hates the Bungie.net forums, and why a portion of the gaming community considers this community to be one of the worst. So, please, go fűck right the hell off with the psuedo-intellectual bullshit.

Lol watch out guys we got TrueVanguard out here teaching us what a meta is... Yeah everybody knows what a meta is and why they happen. The difference between you and everyone else is everyone else doesn't openly campaign for more variety while also defending a meta, which by definition is counterintuitive to variety. You seriously sound like an idiot telling me I don't know how Destiny works. God I wish you had your account linked so I can expose you for the garbage player you are. Congrats on not answering any of my other points legitimately either, other than repeating that YOU don't want Destiny pvp to be competitive. Yeah, we get it dude. Go play Mayhem. No, your opinion should not be taken seriously as you are not a part of the pvp community. Do you realize how dumb it would sound for me to post on here asking Bungie to cater to my philosophy regarding raids even though I don't do them? But because I raided a few times in the past, my opinion should matter as much as the much larger group of people that raid on a weekly basis? Sounds pretty -blam!-ing stupid, right? Yup, and that's you.

Jesus, someone needs to go ahead and give you Tourette's counseling because you have no idea what you are talking about. I did answer your points. Just because I didn't cite and quote all of [i]your[/i] points doesn't mean I never answered them. You are simply too angry and are using your anger to attack me personally. Congrats, you have achieved nothing in your response. Also, if you are someone who doesn't like to do Raids, but gives feedback on what you would like Raids to be instead... that is called [u]constructive feedback.[/u] You are giving [i]your[/i] opinion on what [i]you[/i] want in [i]your[/i] game that [i]you[/i] spent money on. Is that too hard to understand, or do I have to keep spelling it our for you. [spoiler]btw. You obviously have no damn clue what a "meta" is if you are making arguments [i]this bad.[/i][/spoiler]

[quote][spoiler]btw. You obviously have no damn clue what a "meta" is if you are making arguments [i]this bad.[/i][/spoiler][/quote] Hey bud, I'd love for to share your username so we can compare stats, since I don't know anything about pvp. Or would that shatter your argument?

Dude, just stop lol. You were the one that started the personal attacks. [quote]Also, if you are someone who doesn't like to do Raids, but gives feedback on what you would like Raids to be instead... that is called constructive feedback. You are giving your opinion on what you want in your game that you spent money on. Is that too hard to understand, or do I have to keep spelling it our for you.[/quote] No one is saying this you idiot. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But Bungie should not DESIGN THE ENTIRE ACTIVITY based on feedback from people who DON'T PLAY IT. The way you make a successful activity is you design it based on the desires of the people who actually play it. Then if you want to add a few features to incentivize new players to jump into said activity, then that's great and welcome. But you don't alter the OVERLYING PHILOSOPHY of the activity for those people. That's how you lose players. PvP community: "We don't like jumping puzzles or mechanics in raids, and they take too long" *Raids are now 30 min strikes with no jumping puzzles or mechanics, bullet sponge bosses, and matchmaking* How -blam!-ing pissed would you be You make PvE for PvE players and you make PvP for PvP players. Period. You're an absolute idiot if you disagree with this.

[quote]Dude, just stop lol. You were the one that started the personal attacks. [quote]Also, if you are someone who doesn't like to do Raids, but gives feedback on what you would like Raids to be instead... that is called constructive feedback. You are giving your opinion on what you want in your game that you spent money on. Is that too hard to understand, or do I have to keep spelling it our for you.[/quote] No one is saying this you idiot. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But Bungie should not DESIGN THE ENTIRE ACTIVITY based on feedback from people who DON'T PLAY IT. The way you make a successful activity is you design it based on the desires of the people who actually play it. Then if you want to add a few features to incentivize new players to jump into said activity, then that's great and welcome. But you don't alter the OVERLYING PHILOSOPHY of the activity for those people. That's how you lose players. PvP community: "We don't like jumping puzzles or mechanics in raids, and they take too long" *Raids are now 30 min strikes with no jumping puzzles or mechanics, bullet sponge bosses, and matchmaking* How -blam!-ing pissed would you be[/quote] Umm no. Absolutely no. That is [i]absolutely[/i] what you are talking about, and you know it, and that is why you are backtracking. You said, that people who give their opinions on an aspect of the game that they don't play is one that shouldn't be considered. I agree, [i]but[/i] it is still constructive feedback. The problem with your logic, is that your example will [i]never happen[/i]. The Raid and the PvP community are completely different things, and therefore those respected will most likely agree with what people in those respected communities ask for. If someone from the PvP community asked for Raids to have no puzzles and to have no bosses, than those who were fans of Raids would most likely downvote to hell on that post, and vice versa for the PvP community. That is how communities work, which you obviously don't understand. For some nonsensical reason, you actually believe that me, someone who doesn't like PvP, will end up getting everything I want in terms of PvP, even though the majority of the PvP community disagrees with me. This logic just proves that you have absolutely nothing to offer, and are simply attacking me to satisfy your niche of emotional anger. So, to conclude, I gave [u]constructive feedback[/u]. Yet, you somehow this a reason to be a dick about it. You are taking disagreement too personal. Take a few deep breaths, and then respond to me in a coherent way, and then I will take you seriously. Until then, I have reason to be believe you are still a child and have no idea how games like these work.

My exact words: [quote]Why should your opinion be considered over those of the actual pvp community?[/quote] Why should your opinion considered [i]over[/i] the opinions of pvp players when you don't like pvp? If you overlooked that when you first read it then that's one thing, but I fail to see how anyone that's being unbiased can disagree with this statement. As I said before, bringing new players into pvp creates a better environment for everyone: they have a new activity they enjoy playing when pve content is dry, and we have a larger player pool so that connections are better and games aren't as sweaty all the time. [quote]The Raid and the PvP community are completely different things, and therefore those respected will most likely agree with what people in those respected communities ask for. If someone from the PvP community asked for Raids to have no puzzles and to have no bosses, than those who were fans of Raids would most likely downvote to hell on that post, and vice versa for the PvP community.[/quote] This is true... But Bungie has repeatedly made decisions to appease the wrong crowd in these situations... Almost no PvP players want Luna's to be nerfed. None of them wanted a slow TTK at D2's launch. None of them wanted insane sniper flinch and longer zoom. None of them wanted efficiency rating instead of KD as a participation trophy. None of us wanted bloom, none of us wanted Trials with no win-based matchmaking and 7 wins vs 9 wins, none of us wanted light level advantage removed from Trials and IB, none of us wanted Wolf's Favor to negate the re-implementation of light level advantages, none of us wanted SBMM in 6v6 in D1, none of us wanted constant destruction of powerful exotics in D1. We ALL wanted Trials back. This is a very short list and I could go on for hours, but no more evidence is needed to prove that Bungie makes the majority of their changes to pvp with pve players in mind.