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5/22/2019 12:56:24 AM
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I'm just gonna lay this out:
Bungie, you gave us your answer to enhancement cores and we, by a large margin, have rejected it. We have rejected your reasoning and we refuse to chase the "meaningful decision" that we all know does not, nor will it ever, exist.
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4k or so people are not the majority. [i]just reminding you.[/i]
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Are you at all familiar with sampling size? Lol.
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Are [i]you[/i] familiar with sampling size? Do you [i]even [b][u]math[/u][/b][/i] bro? That's not enough to warrant an overall opinion of the game. Lets set the game population at 500,000. 4000 doesn't even equate to 1 percent of the population. You mean to tell me less than 1 percent is going to feel like they are the majority?
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I don’t know if OP does math but you clearly don’t do statistics. Elections are regularly, accurately predicted with a sample size of 1500 people to represent a population of 100 million voters in the U.S. There are things wrong with using the bnet forum as a representative sample but being too small of a sample isn’t one of them.
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Edited by Necrogen: 5/23/2019 3:23:35 PMIt has [i]nothing to do[/i] with who knows statistics. I posed a question. Do [b][i][u]you let less than 1% Dictate how something works?[/u][/i][/b] Its one thing if bungie makes the decision themselves...its their game. But less than 1% of the community gets to make the calls when it comes to nerfs, buffs etc? Jesus lord almighty. [b][i][u]read what is being said.[/u][/i][/b]
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I did. You specifically challenged OPs math because of the sample size he was using. You brought your misunderstanding of how sampling works to the conversation. I’m just pointing out that you don’t know what you’re talking about. As I said, the bnet forums are not a good representation of the total active player population or potential customer base but not because the sample size is too small. The main problem is that we self select and we’re all outliers. There are no normals here. Normals do not spend time on video game discussion boards arguing over game mechanics. They play games. If they enjoy them they keep playing. If they don’t, they play something else. They don’t get emotionally invested, the don’t go online to rage against the company or the game. They just move on. We don’t. Hell we keep coming to the forum even after we quit playing the game. That’s NOT normal behavior. None of us should be taken seriously where the game is concerned. Bungie needs to do real player engagement surveys to find out what normals like and don’t like and then build that game.
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Edited by Necrogen: 5/23/2019 3:52:12 PM🤦 let me start from the top. The people complaining about cores [i]state[/i] and [i]believe[/i] they are the majority. This discussion has been spread out in this thread. [i]its not specifically this one[/i]. If 4000 stood up vs 500000+? You're a minority. Simple. We have people here stating its a sample size and its representative. That's an excuse someone is making to make it seem like their complaint is more than solid. [i]its not[/i]. Sheer number? Still no. Parallel sentiment from the community. The same amount (since people love sample size so much) [i] also[/i] say streamers shouldn't make calls for the game and make changes. Hypocritical - streamers cant have an opinion because they [i]live and breathe this game [/i]but 4k people who cant voice as one [i]as a whole[/i] can sit here and say how the game works? Mind you a lot from this 4k have given up on the game, dont understand how games work, are pretty close minded and act entitled...just to name a few things observed on these forums. So when i sit here and treat this as a separate case, I shall stand and say how ridiculous this is. Im sure if we all sat in a huge room and you witnessed .8% of people standing, you'd tell them to sit down when you see 99.2* still sitting. You're arguing how the system works. Im talking about the reality of it. Bungie benefits [i]more[/i] with [i]more[/i] feedback. The more people participate the better. To sit there and say sample size be benefits more in politics is also ridiculous. More people = more people. We need a higher amount to know how the community feels about it. Also dont be a smartass and think if its 49 -51 id say 51 still dont care therefore 49% loses. Id honestly say 25% at best is a scary amount of disgruntled consumers.
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Okay. We’ve established that you don’t understand statistics or how sampling works. We’ve also established that you didn’t read my last post. Were you in too much if a hurry to respond to actually read what you were responding to? While you make those you are debating look brilliant I think I’m done wasting time on you. Enjoy.
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I tried to tell him!
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You know what? If i cant post to be clear then fine. You took it as me dismissing your point. Piss off guy
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Edited by SouLFeeS: 5/23/2019 12:56:02 PMMuch like the definition of goods vs service, you have it wrong. The best practice is to choose 100 sample size per 100k population. Most companies will use a lot less than that and try to focus more on cross-section. For instance, for population of 500k, with high confidence and error margin of 5 (which is the +-5 you see on all polls), a normal corporate sample size would be less than 350 people. In politics, however, more is better. The larger your sample size the higher your confidence, especially when you’re polling on concepts vs tangible objects. There were over 1500 votes in the cores poll. Even if only half were real, which I seriously doubt, that would still leave more than double the sample size required for 500k, which we all know is an inflated population number anyway. Thusly, I stand by those numbers and the interpretation of them.
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Video Games: Goods Or Services? ... In the absence of a definitive legal answer, software and games companies have generally treated software itself as a service – which means treating games like World of Warcraft as well as platforms like Steam or Xbox LIVE as aservice." Hop off that high horse of yours. K?
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I’m not on a high horse. Treating something different than what it is doesn’t change what it is. SAAS is a phenomenon of cloud architecture PAAS, a way for Amazon and Azure to increase market size, that filtered down into some software companies as a way to implement agile development. They do not license the games via subscription, and none of this can actually change accounting principles (despite how accountants accommodate these companies). So, as long as a buyer owns their copy of the game, without any rights to reproduce and sell it, it’s a product, a good, not a service.
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Thats cool. Videogames are considered a service. You just dont agree. That's fine. You dont have to agree. The fact that people are coming out stating its not is indicating that it is. Blame the times.
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Just like in the other post, I’m not fully following you, but I do agree that we disagree. Please don’t accuse me of talking down to you. I don’t do that. I just think it’s important for people to try and get on the same page re things that should be generally accepted. I realize that companies like MS and Amazon are heavily invested in an attempt to make the law murky, despite the fact that their PAAS products aren’t really threatened by the SAAS precedent, which does exist under licensing law. Still, you must see a huge difference between destiny and MS 360. Even the annual pass is only a pre-purchased set of updates on a clearly defined product.
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Edited by Necrogen: 5/23/2019 4:24:04 PMThe lines have blurred already, you dont see it yet. This game can shut down at any time and we lose it forever. We dont [i]own[/i] destiny. We bought a license to play it. Its a service. Im unfamiliar with why you compare the video game to a word program for. They both function differently but they still service people. One is a videogame - it provides entertainment. Word helps us type things and organizes things. Doesnt mean destiny isnt a service. I see what i see here with destiny, world of warcraft, ff14, phantasy star online 2 and the many to follow. The difference with destiny is that they dont charge monthly.
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[quote]The difference with destiny is that they dont charge monthly.[/quote] That’s the key. That along with what you get when you walk into a store and [b]buy a copy of destiny 2[/b]. It’s not a service. It could become a service, like MS 360, which is why I gave you that example, but right now it’s not.
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Edited by Necrogen: 5/23/2019 4:34:35 PMthat makes absolutely no sense because if you're going to say Microsoft 360 is a serviced what are you going to say about the people who bought the permanent key so they can have office? both are need of updates both are in need of maintenance if the sugar goes down their functions do not work. I believe that the whole services portion here is misunderstood as you do not need to charge monthly for a service whether you can actually just pay for a set amount of months and then have to pay again for another set up services. take the annual pass for example. The thing cost $30 for 3 expansions and it's going to last you the whole year. You just spent $30 for a year. when that finishes they're going to come up with yet another annual pass or big expansion which is going to be x amount of dollars for however long it lasts. In this light this is a service.
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I see what’s got you, and if it weren’t for the fact that D2 can be physically purchased and owned, I might agree. I also see your point re the MS key, but the key expires. It’s just a way to avoid the annoyance of paying monthly, and the main distribution of 360 is a [b]hosted[/b] one. Bungie won’t even give us dedicated servers. I’m not trying to trigger you. I’ll even let you have the last word.
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This isn't who gets the last word....this is you telling me why its not considered a service and its me asking how in the world does that make sense? D2 can be purchased digitally as word [i]up to a point[/i] had a physical release. It seems to me that the traditional definitions are shifting and blurring a bit. It sounds to me that destiny is both a product and a service.
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If you're going to continue with the goods vs services argument, at least explain what you're going on about otherwise drop it. The sample size? That's an excuse. That's laziness. You're going to tell me less than 1% is an appropriate [i]amount[/i] to get a feel for what's needed in the game? I don't think you listen to the general opinion of the community. They don't like it when a few streamers say how the game should be run yet you're still going to stand by that the less we have the better? Ridiculous.
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10% of the "active" population joined in one voice is something bungie shouldn't avoid. If 20-25% of the population is even on the forums, that's close to half of all forum users. Population went from 14.5 million to 400k due to bungie's complete incompetence. Every change, every "we'll pass it along" bullsh*t response, makes people leave. On the flip side, so many good games out there, it was easy to uninstall d2.
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They didnt avoid anything. They answered and said [i]no[/i] to cores. They did it like 10 times. Just because people didnt get what they wanted doesn't mean it was avoided. 20- 25% is scarier when it comes to disgruntled consumers. Relatively speaking, that is more significant. Still not a majority. it should raise eyebrows. Im taking a break from the game though. Nothing much to do when you're basically caught up.
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No, but 13.5 million players not playing are the majority. If there wasn't an issue, we would see far more than 400K players per day across three platforms
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But even there you can't say it's because of cores. People have many reasons why they are inactive.
