{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
5/25/2021 11:22:15 AM
2
It’s not an issue for experienced players.
They know the fights well, so they can simply focus their attention on the oracles.
But to new players, this could easily become an overwhelming task. Because of the added pressure of trying to learn the fights at the same.
As I’ve been saying it isn’t make the fight too difficult in general. It’s making the raid less accessible to new players for little benefit to vets like me.
I don’t feel that the benefits of the change are worth the costs to accessibility.
English
-
Edited by YeahMatt: 5/27/2021 6:04:28 PMA raid SHOULD be overwhelming for a new player. That's the whole excitement of your first completion. It's hard as nails at first but you learn how to do it, and it becomes easy with practice. If you just go into your first raid and stomp on it like a Vanguard strike then it's not gonna be the special and memorable moment that it is. I remember clearing Kings Fall as my first ever raid. It was a 6 HOUR journey (everyone else minus maybe 1 had experience), countless wipes, banging my head against a metaphorical wall, thinking I just wouldn't be able to do it. But I kept trying until the mechanics started locking into my brain and now I can literally go in there and beat it without really thinking. And that final fight is STILL more complex than this version of VOG
-
But even [i]with[/i] the changes, the encounter is no more challenging than any DSC encounter which was derided for being too easy. In fact, since they never knew any different, I’d be inclined to say that the mechanics make more sense now than before. Accessibility is something of a loaded word, one I’d rather not get into discussing but for any able bodied player, the oracle encounter is no trickier than any other raid encounter and we all have to start somewhere.
-
For people already familiar with the fights. Also DSC was paid content. VoG is being made free tobb by the entire community which carries with it a reasonable expectation of accessibility and a good way to introduce new players to raiding.
-
At no point in time was it advertised as an introduction to raiding. It’s free because anyone who played it in D1 would lose their minds if they felt like they were repaying for content. We all did our first raid at some point with many of us starting with VoG. The revised mechanics make the fight more concise not more difficult. Also, let’s run with your theory that it’s intended to be a raid tutorial made easier than typical raids, they then pay to play the other raids and are in for a rude awakening when the difficulty spikes. Raids should be relatively equal in difficulty, free or otherwise.
-
Where did I say that Bungie failed to honor a promise? I’m saying they missed an opportunity, and my expectations were created when they said they intended to stay true to identity of the original. While the changes they made to major mechanics are in keeping with the letter of what they said, it is arguably outside of the spirit of what was said.
-
By the thinnest of arguments. Doing them in order was actually one of the challenges. This wasn’t even your original point anyway. Getting dangerously close to strawman territory here.
-
Edited by TheArtist: 5/25/2021 4:48:10 PMNot a strawman. ...and this IS my point. I’ve spent most of my time dealing with other people’s strawmen. You want it easy. People just want to be carried. You’re complaining because you’re just not good enough. I swear it’s like being back in high school... Oh and turning a raid challenge and baking it into the base version of the raid is staying true to the identity of the original raid.... ...by the thinnest of arguments.
-
I’ve never said any of those things. The raid is a faithful recreation, the only real deviation from the original is that one of the challenges is now part of base mechanics. Why? Because it makes more sense as a mechanic and since it’s already been made [i]easier[/i], as ads are much easier to kill now and the number of rounds has been shortened, it hardly warrants an outcry. Your initial post had nothing to do with staying true to the original, that only became your argument once you realised you’d lost the last one. Hence, strawman. But I’m not going to argue this with you since… well that’d be another strawman. Is the raid true to the original whilst minimally streamlining mechanics from 7 years ago? Yes. Is the raid any harder than any of the other D2 raids? Definitely not, (although I will admit I haven’t beaten Atheon yet due to time constraints and nothing else.) Is the raid harder than it was originally? No, it requires slightly more coordination in one part but because that mechanic is much more concise than before, it’s easier to do once you get the hang of communicating and counting to what, 7?
-
Hard agree. Kg always pulling out them strawmen. How long until he makes his good old destiny vs division comparison? 😂
-
Edited by TheArtist: 5/25/2021 6:21:24 PMI never said you did. I said "other people's" strawmen. Not **yours**. [quote]The raid is a faithful recreation[/quote] No it isn't. Its been powerfully modified. But modified in a way that presevers the level of threat associated with the original raid in the current sandbox....and the mechanical demands modified to put it in-line with those of other D2 raids. [quote]Because it makes more sense as a mechanic and since it’s already been made easier, as ads are much easier to kill now and the number of rounds has been shortened, it hardly warrants an outcry.[/quote] No it doesn't. No it hasn't. ....and yes it does. For the reasons I've outlined. [quote]Your initial post had nothing to do with staying true to the original, that only became your argument once you realised you’d lost the last one[/quote] No it didn't. But people have been desperate to move the goalposts, and I responded to the effort to rationalize the status quo. I didn't LOSE the previous argument. Just responded to an effort to CHANGE THE SUBJECT. Hence calling my response a "strawman" is inaccurate at best. Disingenuous at worst. [quote]Is the raid true to the original whilst minimally streamlining mechanics from 7 years ago? Yes.[/quote] No it isn't. The tempo of combat is faster. The enemies are tankier. Overload Minotaurs have replaced Praetorians....and the mechanics are more complicated. Not less. Never mind "streamlined." Bungie's clear goal was to recreate the feel and the sense of THREAT associated with early runs of VoG...but this raid has been havily modified in terms of how its combat plays out. [quote]Is the raid any harder than any of the other D2 raids? [/quote] How many other D2 raids were made free to all players at launch?[ [quote]Is the raid harder than it was originally? No, [/quote] [b] ...and HERE is where you got greedy, and overplayed your hand[/b]. The fact that what were essentially raid CHALLENGES have now been made an INTEGRAL part of the raid does mean---mechanically speaking---the raid IS more difficult than the original. Which was my point The increase in difficulty will be disporportionately born by new and less-experienced players. To those already intimately familiar with the original, the increase in difficulty of the mechanics are a minor inconvenience. But for others, it will be a significant barrier to learning the raid....but worse...in securing opportunities to learn the raid. A point that even the most casual---but HONEST---glance at how LFG sites are operating makes abundantly clear.
-
I’ve never said any of those things. The raid is a faithful recreation, the only real deviation from the original is that one of the challenges is now part of base mechanics. Why? Because it makes more sense as a mechanic and since it’s already been made [i]easier[/i], as ads are much easier to kill now and the number of rounds has been shortened, it hardly warrants an outcry. Your initial post had nothing to do with staying true to the original, that only became your argument once you realised you’d lost the last one. Hence, strawman. But I’m not going to argue this with you since… well that’d be another strawman. Is the raid true to the original whilst minimally streamlining mechanics from 7 years ago? Yes. Is the raid any harder than any of the other D2 raids? Definitely not, (although I will admit I haven’t beaten Atheon yet due to time constraints and nothing else.) Is the raid harder than it was originally? No, it requires slightly more coordination in one part but because that mechanic is much more concise than before, it’s easier to do once you get the hang of communicating and counting to what, 7?
