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Edited by Papi:
7/25/2022 3:34:16 AM
20
Savathun is not evil (SPOILERS)
I just replayed the 1st mission again and noticing the dialogue. Considering we know now that Savathun had her memories erased, probably had her Hive followers remember some about they're relationship-- they were their version of "The Last City". On first meeting, we killed the Hive guardian (probably no worries) but then [b]we killed the Hive ghost[/b]. And Savathun was referring to us as "honored guests" and not as usual 'guardians' but at the same time I think [b]she had sensed some Darkness in us[/b] because of Stasis and so we were strangers to her that came and attacked her people and killed a ghost-- something that "mirrors us" she said. These [b]Lucent Hive were pure Light[/b] already and we were half Light half Dark.
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We have to keep in mind [u][b]Savathun was basically "reset" into a fresh new guardian[/b][/u] and she wasn't who she was before and during season of the lost (much like Crow). Despite how devious Savathun's personality seems, she's still like a good leader supposedly trying to protect her people and the Traveler. I think in their eyes (and even objectively) we were the 'bad guys' in this one.
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[quote]I just replayed the 1st mission again and noticing the dialogue. Considering we know now that Savathun had her memories erased, probably had her Hive followers remember some about they're relationship-- they were their version of "The Last City". On first meeting, we killed the Hive guardian (probably no worries) but then [b]we killed the Hive ghost[/b]. And Savathun was referring to us as "honored guests" and not as usual 'guardians' but at the same time I think [b]she had sensed some Darkness in us[/b] because of Stasis and so we were strangers to her that came and attacked her people and killed a ghost-- something that "mirrors us" she said. These [b]Lucent Hive were pure Light[/b] already and we were half Light half Dark. . We have to keep in mind [u][b]Savathun was basically "reset" into a fresh new guardian[/b][/u] and she wasn't who she was before and during season of the lost (much like Crow). Despite how devious Savathun's personality seems, she's still like a good leader supposedly trying to protect her people and the Traveler. I think in their eyes (and even objectively) we were the 'bad guys' in this one.[/quote] Survival is one thing genocide and excessive cruelty is an entirely different matter. Unless of course you believe the ends do in fact justify the means.
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1 ReplyI buy it. Evil and Good is just a human concept anyway. A concept that operates under the illusion that morals are objective. There is no objective good. Just what is objectively good for you. I mean humanity is just seemingly executing everything in its path with a gun. Pretty sure we’re the evil ones. Selfish.
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1 ReplyActually, us having darkness has nothing to do with an affiliation to good or evil. Plus, I wouldn't call someone who uses another's flesh as a cloak and tries to commit genocide against the fallen the 'good guy.' Try again, chief.
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2 RepliesOh, Savathun was evil alright. The question is that she's a moving target, and we're not entirely sure where she's going to land. She realized that she made a bad deal with the Worm Gods, and wanted out of it. Her pride made it that she refused to serve the Witness, and apparently played a role in the allowing the Traveler ---and us---to survive the Collapse. The conflict between Light and Dark isn't so much one of good vs evil....but more of creation vs destruction. Order versus Chaos. Harmony vs Conflict. Life vs death. Its more about trying to find a balance of Universal Forces. Savathun is in the awkward position in terms of being evil (but unwilling to serve the even-more-evil Witness)....but also having a love of life. That was rekindled by getting to experience life without having to constantly kill while she was occupying Osiris' body. She was also willing to give up everything...and die...to be free of the Darkness and her deal with the Worm Gods. Which is why I believe that the Traveler rewarded her with being turned into a Lightbearer. She understood that Savathun had been tricked into aligning with the Worm Gods....and could be a valuable ally in the coming conflict with the Witness. The question is whether she and the Lucent Hive will be willing to join the allianace.
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My favorite thing about her, one of her memories; she realized conquering everything, or to be the last living thing was overall pointless...what then really? I saved the clip, because it's how I explain an AI, and how we demonize them often times. Like the AI in wargames realized that nuclear war was pointless, no winner. And what the "Witness" has realized...existence with life and death is pointless.
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Edited by Sturm with no Drang: 7/26/2022 12:23:55 AMOnly problem with this theory is that Immaru, Sav’s Ghost, clearly has shown a disdain towards Guardians even before becoming a Hive Ghost. If anyone had any say in directing Savathûn’s actions upon her resurrection then it’d clearly would be him, and not in a welcoming manner for us.
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1 ReplyI suggest you read the lore books for the witch queen, she was our enemy the entire time, same with lightbearer hive when they were resurrected they were told of who they actually are and told of us as the enemy, not to mention many light bearing hive hate their ghosts and their bodies physically view the light as a disease and try to isolate it and expell it, which is how those moths are formed
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Edited by Shockwave 989: 7/27/2022 12:14:53 PMSavathûn is still our enemy in The Witch Queen. While yes, her plan had [b]THE TRAVELERS[/b] best interest in mind, it would’ve left Humanity defenceless and caused our extinction, an event Savathûn would’ve watched with glee. This is in stark contrast to something like Forsaken, where we were played and our ‘victory’ was almost a complete loss. This isn’t to say Savathûn won’t become an ally in the fight against the Witness, considering she’s obviously coming back, but to claim she isn’t evil is ridiculous. Savathûn is self serving, she would sacrifice the Traveler and the Hive in a heartbeat to ensure her own survival. The only reason she turned to the Light was that her Worm acted as a ticking time bomb that could never be defused.
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1 ReplyShe tried invading earth and wanted to wipe out humanity in season of the risen. She's definitely evil. Her wizards filled her in on who she was when she was ressurected. She wanted the traveler all for herself.
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2 RepliesIn the lorebooks she would get the hive guardians rezzed and then immediately start torturing them until they were brainwashed into joining her cause. She was manipulative and evil, and even when she didn't have her memories she still continued to act like the witch queen, she'd come across as sympathetic to gain our trust, remember season of the lost?
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2 Repliesfor me ,before lightfall we become ally with savathun hives , so is a war of guardian,eliksni,cabal,lucent hive , vs scorn,taken,xivu hive, and maybe a new enemy race
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YES. I want me and a fynch’s Titan. To thunder crash the darkness.
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2 RepliesPrior to season of the lost savathun put her memories into those tablets that we go around collecting for her giving back her previous life's memories. I didn't see anything indicating that she gave this knowledge to her brood.
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This may have just been coincidental. In a realistic scenario, this would probably be true, but I don’t think this is what bungie’s storytelling intended. Although this could be true. I think that we will have to revive Sabaton in the future in order to protect the traveler. I believe that is why they kept her revival as a possibility.
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4 RepliesShe ordered hordes of her lightless hive to attack us on sight long before she spoke to us or we encountered her hive light bearer. We couldn't even kill the ghost immediately, we watched and observed it first before we killed it in self defense the second time we killed the knight. Savathun is not good, and some of the hive ghosts are practically psychopaths based on lore entries, she would've doomed all sol species to death, likely billions total, if she completed her ritual.
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3 Replieslook at what the lucent hive were doing to mars: terraforming it... making a dead red planet green again; habitable. what we doing? killing them lol
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Edited by KannibalKlown: 7/25/2022 2:20:24 PMShe wasn’t a full reset. Considering when we first encounter her, she’s talking about stuff she would have forgotten and following her old plan. I believe the assumption, or perhaps lore, is that she left the broad strokes of who she was and her plans with some trustworthy characters like hive wizards and such. So when she “reset” they were ordered to fill her in on who she was, and what she wanted to do. And then just went through the motions of being evil until you helped restore her more specific memories. That being said. She may exist in a shade of grey instead of purely good or evil. Especially now that she’s even more angry at the darkness than she was before she realized she was tricked. But it’s hard to call her historical “good”. As for a long time, in order to survive and not be in pain she had her minions kill intelligent life forms by the millions to feed her worm in the hives twisted pyramid scheme existence.
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8 RepliesThey attack you first. You don’t attack “honored guests”. Unless your philosophy is that of the Sword Logic, in which you try to kill honored guests. Killing typically means…not good. The Ghosts may have pushed the idea of being violent against us, knowing we would come. She could have easily left instructions, in which case OG Savvy told new Savvy to attack intruders. So by her own hand and manipulations, she made her reset self make herself an enemy of us instead of allowing for the chance of reconciliation. And if not her then the Ghosts, who see us as bad guys anyway. I’m fine with the claim that we didn’t attempt to make peace but let’s not act like they were innocent.
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3 RepliesThe ends don't justify the means. Even if her intentions seem good (to her), they are still incredibly selfish and harming to those she interacts with. For example, even before regaining her memories, she was actively trying to seal the Traveler into her throne world, which would've cut us off completely from the Light and doom us for when the Witness inevitably arrives again.
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1 Replyhere's the thing you overlooked she planned this you heard it right she planned this she has plans within plans she knew how to get the light and that she would lose her memory and left these breadcrumbs for us to find and in the end help her regain her memory (except the worm familiar) so she is still evil sorry its a bust
