The ease of use is too high. They shoot too far. The ttk is too fast for this range. [b]They are free.[/b] Peacekeepers was a necessary change, and yet, Submachine gun players will still continue to find great success with little investment. How many months will we need to take to assess what has been painfully evident for so long now? I know your fear of HC/Auto and Side Arm encroaching upon a squished Sub archetype. I trust the talented team is intelligent enough to whittle it down to a better place. As it stands, they are still in too powerful a state. [spoiler]You might argue the specifics offenders, Unending Tempest, Immortal, and Shayura's account for a smaller portion of each meta list than their surrounding weapon archetype competitors that bleed into their ideal engagement range. This is true. And yet, throwing on a Sub in a rumble match means working a lot less to find success in a shorter amount of time, without needing perfect precision for each kill. Save Ace of Spades which remains exceptionally strong but slept on due to its recoil. [/spoiler] [spoiler]Everything is slowly returning to a much better state after a year of... I don't know... But much of the damage has been done. Hopefully people will return for the Final Shape and a Crucible with fresh maps and won't be inundated with threadlings, excessive clones, and subs. Looking forward to the nerfs. [/spoiler] Edit : New Novel Added Jan 15 for the interested parties following everyone's comments. 👇🏽 [spoiler] For the angry ones This is about looking into specific Subs. Not your PvE Calus Mini Tools. 140 Hand cannons are the baseline for the sandbox and the primary weapon choice of self proclaimed sweats. People often identify with things and make choices based on feelings and not necessarily what their best option might be. Precision weapons, peeking, breaking line of sight, changing verticality and having escape routes appeal to some more than others. Others like to shoot a bunch of bullets real fast. Lower tier players at the higher end of their brackets performance tend to choose Autos. High tier players at the higher end of performance tend to choose HCs. This was a statement by a Bungie employee. Rumble, where it's "you against the world" often shows Unending Tempest excelling. Presumably on many maps. Certainly not just the smallest ones. [b][u]Most are fine[/u][/b]. Unending Tempest preforms too well in Rumble and Trials. [u]I'd argue that Rumble has been dominated by Titans with Subs almost exclusively for many months.[/u] [b]What is the effectiveness of the weapon compared to its usage? How quickly are these kills happening in succession as compared to other weapons types?[/b] [u]I'm not saying someone with precision weapons can't outplay them.[/u] Certainly Thorn, Rose, and Ace do fine for themselves in the proper hands, but [b]Subs error on the side of being free at unreasonable distances at times [/b]when considering the myriad of factors affecting Destiny outside of its performance on paper. Some Subs comfortably shoot too far for a very short ttk with very little required of the wielder. There's little penalization for body shots because of some perk combos and potential stat distributions on the mentioned guns. [b]When you start adding over shields and p2p SBMM prefired peekers advantage or simply using a movement exotic[/b] to increase slide speed and you're making places on the maps [b]entirely free[/b]. Things should have a place where they are most effective. [b][u]The fear is that Autos and HC will encroach on Subs being crushed on the other side by Side Arms.[/u][/b] I believe however close they are to that boundary, they can find a better place for these things. [b]It will have to be a subtle adjustment. I'm not asking for them to be butchered[/b] Most of the maps are designed to make them the ideal choice in this current meta. They are good for countering apes as they are designed to be, but some also map while often being an exceedingly strong aping primary themselves. [u]I don't want them to not have a place in the Meta.[/u] Just have more recoil or damage fall off in PvP sooner so they have to use proper movement and positioning to move up to auto and hand cannons and continue to steer clear of Side Arms. Punished in the way you are punished if you're sloppy rushing with other things. With the low player population, the latency between players is very apparent in some games. This makes for some wonky scenarios in certain gun fights where the gap to retaliate against a Sub is null and void. It's not about an unwillingness to adapt or that it they can't be countered played correctly. Certainly if you put distance between you and peek or you have a side arm you can do something, on paper. It feels like you cannot fail a single aspect of precision weaponry in a Rumble setting in a way running a Sub doesn't punish you. Since flinch changes to be reflected in part by Resil. And I want to know how great that disparity is. Not overall total kills of a particular subclass of weapon or top 10 weapons based on total number of kills. Who Is Using Subs Most? What is their win rate when they have them? HOW FAST are the majority getting their kills over other weapons types in a Rumble setting on those games where they win? In a game where there's only a few subs, how often are those the top 3 players in the lobby? In the end, the devs will make their own decisions of course. But id like to know when subs will be nerfed.[/spoiler]