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Edited by Obi-Juan:
4/26/2024 2:58:20 PM
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It's genuinely wild how many people are deliberately missing your point when you were very clear in your words. You're not saying champions are hard, you're saying they're restrictive. It doesn't matter if the subclass changes have made them less restrictive, they're still restrictive. Having to run a volatile loadout or having to run a specific grenade is restrictive. Being forced to use specific things removes your ability to have variety, makes it less fun. Tormentors exist and can be dealt with through knowledge of how they work. No need for specific champ mods.
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The amount of people in these comments that are completely missing the point is mind boggling. All we’re asking for is more options and less restriction. Champions are fun but who tf even uses sidearms? Why are we only allowed to use sidearms against anti barrier for the ENTIRE SEASON? “I can kill them without sidearms” good for you guys but the rest of us aren’t trying to waste time or resources like rockets when they could be used on more important bosses.
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The only mod you need is anti Overload and unstoppable die easy without stuns
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/27/2024 2:48:13 AMTell me, what are you shooting at an overload to make them die easy without stuns Also unstoppables take the longest time to kill if you don't stun them. The only champ actually quick to melt is anti barrier, but they very often pop barrier at like 5% health.
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I think what most of the comments are trying to say is especially in onslaught that they are not restrictive because you don’t actually need to stun them so you are really not needing to spec into anything you can use whatever build and guns you want so it really isn’t a deflated feeling when making a build as you can use whatever weapons you want 3 people can just delete them as soon as they show up I’m absolutely not going to say skill issues but I think maybe the OP is creating an issue that really doesn’t exist in onslaught I have never specifically built for champs in onslaught cuz it was never needed
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/26/2024 9:56:43 PMIf a barrier has 5% health and decides to put his shield up you do need to stun it unless you want to waste time. Wasting time in onslaught can be detrimental to whatever else has spawned in from rng. If an overload decides to spam teleport to the adu and you're in a later wave where it's pivotal you don't lose adu health, you need to stun it. Unstoppable is the only true champion that doesn't NEED the stun. You can kill them eventually. The others regen their health. I've played more legend onslaught with randoms than i've played anything in the last 2 seasons. You absolutely need someone to have the champion mods if you want to get legend 50 done. I don't know why people are so hesitant to admit that. It's restrictive. The Coil was a perfect example of why champions make an activity less fun. Not because of difficulty, because the coil let you just use anything you want, so when the pathways increased in power, all it would take is skill. Not just "make sure you cater your loadout or build to having a specific champ stun". It's lazy band aid design and everyone keeps confusing the criticism of it for a skill issue when it's not. We're pointing out lazy, boring band aid design that restricts variety of builds and weapons. The literal only weapon currently that isn't an exotic that can by itself function with barrier is sidearms. Like come on! If someone doesn't have indebted kindness, forerunner or the warlord's exotic sidearm, you're gonna want to be close range whenever barriers appear. Tormentors and things alike are exactly what we need instead of champions. They don't require a specific weapon. Anything can kill them with enough bullets and with anything that isn't an explosive weapon, you just aim for their crit spot. It's much more engaging an enemy type than champions. They add champions to master raids for a reason because they can't be bothered actually making the master raids difficult and engaging. They just stick champs in. Lazy, lazy design.
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This is hardly the first game with enemies requiring the player to utilize specific weapons/abilities/skills in order to defeat or damage them though so it's not as though it's a revolutionary new concept. Is this a topic of contention on the forums of [b]every game[/b] that does this?
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Edited by brigs_PS: 4/26/2024 7:07:14 PMProbably because the majority of people don’t have an issue with champions in onslaught lol. It doesn’t matter if you think they’re restrictive. They’re not an issue with 3 players that don’t have locked loadouts.
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/26/2024 7:49:04 PMThey add nothing of value to the activity stop acting like making a critique of something means you struggle to find a solution to it/skill issue. Thats not the case. Also the community has been majorly vocal about champions and how they're boring and past their due date. Bungie adds champions to master and calls it difficulty when its not. Its just restricting your loadout.
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I can agree that putting champs in don’t make an activity harder. I just don’t get bothered by them. I get it though. You want to use whatever you want to use. I do think encouraging players to use more weapons might have lead some players to find new weapons they like which wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t encouraged to use it.
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/26/2024 8:16:02 PMYou really agree with that kind of design though? The weapons arent getting used for a reason. All making them champ viable does is make people have less fun especially if they dont have indebted kindness. It's just a lazy way of making people care about weapon archetypes instead of buffing weapons that need buffed. Indebted and the 2 exotics easily deal with barriers. Other sidearms dont. Champions are band aid design. Just laziness. Tormentors? Hive guardians? These new dread additions in TFS? Now thats more like it.
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I think if the goal is to have everyone try all the weapon types then yeah not bad design. Obviously over time people aren’t happy with it so there is that lol. I just don’t know what the design goal was. Most of my builds handle all the champs either way. Lucky pants hunter Indebted kindness with jolt shot Warden law adept Dawn chorus warlock Dragons breathe Zaolis Bane hc Supremacy I didn’t build this for champs but it just works out.
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/27/2024 12:18:14 AMNot bad design? What about, you know, making the weapons actually good so people use them on their own accord lmao?
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They are good. This is the first I’ve used indebted kindness and final warning and both are real good. I did say I don’t know what their design goal as and neither do you unless they released it in a Vidoc. Tormentor and the new enemies are awesome though.
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/27/2024 12:34:41 AM2 sidearms are good out of how many? Why do you keep pretending to not understand what i'm saying? It's all right there yet you apparently don't have the ability to read it [quote]Indebted and the 2 exotics easily deal with barriers. Other sidearms dont. [/quote]
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Look I get your point lol. You’re not happy with it. I honestly wouldn’t care if they were removed from the game completely. I also am ok with them staying though. It’s fine that you’re not happy with them snd think they’re a bad design. Not everyone is like you so some people will disagree 🤷🏼♂️
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/27/2024 12:40:59 AMThat's completely fine what you're saying right now. But there's no way you think it's ok that 2 or 3 sidearms are viable for anti barriers when the only weapon you can use without volatile or radiant or unravel or whatever is these unique sidearm frames that really don't function the same as 99% of sidearms. I don't understand why you seem to prefer Bungie to not make weapons viable and instead just use champions as a band aid. How can you genuinely not think that's bad design. It's so obviously lazy band aid design. If you genuinely just want to die on this hill fair enough, but come on, surely you see sense If champion mods are supposed to get people to use sidearms, what's the point? These sidearms you mentioned are already good without needing them for champions. The needle doesn't move for the actual bad sidearms that Bungie will be wanting people to use, or if it does, people are gonna have an awful experience with them because they are just awful for anti barrier
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Ok what weapons aren’t viable? Burst side arms are good and heliocentric is insane. I never said I don’t want Bungie to make weapons viable. I can agree on they should allow more than side arms pierce barrier in the artifact and let each subclass be capable of stunning all 3.
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Heliocentric is absolutely awful beyond the middle of close and medium range. Sure you can just not hold the trigger down, take your time with each bullet to prevent recoil, but come the hell on, indebted can literally 1 tap the barriers from the other side of the map. Ok great. So you seem to agree that making bad weapons the only thing that can by itself stun a certain champ, it's bad design. Cool.
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I’m not comparing primary ammo weapons to special ammo weapons lol.
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That's exactly where the imbalance of viability is though. There's only 1 legendary sidearm that's a special. That's awful design. "Hey you can easily stun champs, but there's only 1 legendary in the entire game that can do it with 1 shot. Cool huh?"
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They’re releasing more in final shape.
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"Hey you can easily stun champs, but there's only 3 legendary in the entire game that can do it with 1 shot. Cool huh?"
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So you want everything to one shot stun barriers ?
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Edited by Obi-Juan: 4/27/2024 1:10:22 AMWell considering eriana's vow the SPECIAL ... EXOTIC ... hand cannon with intrinsic anti barrier takes 2 shots, there is clearly poor design at play here. If it was well designed and wasn't intrusive on peoples fun and wasn't restrictive, all sidearms would one shot. Instead, only 3 out of tonnes and tonnes of othe sidearms are viable. Bad design considering what you just said about bungie trying to incentivize people to use the lesser used guns. I have genuinely never seen someone so defensive of just plain poor design when something so clearly quality and better is coming in final shape with the dread. The fact you don't see the clear many flaws with champions in the game and don't want to see it removed from at least everything that isn't a Nightfall or maybe a Legend/Master Lost Sector, is genuinely mind boggling. The Coil had the perfect design philosophy for difficulty and all they needed to do was continue it for onslaught. But instead, they added champions. Super poor and confusing choice imo. What I honestly think has happened here, is Bungie wanted people to buy the dungeon key. So they made sidearms anti barrier to make people want to get either the exotic or indebted. I genuinely would not be surprised. Who cares about the imbalance and that it's bad design because it gets people to buy the dungeon key lol
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Pretty sure I said I wouldn’t care if they were removed from the game. I also said that maybe but we don’t know the design was to get people to use a more broad spectrum of weapons like. Not under used weapons. I think the new enemies are great and I see that is good design lol.
