Hello, just wanted to do a post cuz I haven't in a while. I have barely played the game in the last two or three months, logging on primarily just to do GoS runs with the clan I had to merge my clan with because this game is dead and growing a new clan felt pointless. So, here are the three things I think are wrong with D2 that, if fixed, might help some people come back to the game.
1. The way the game is currently designed alienates newer or more casual players while causing the rest to avoid playing with each other.
This issue is pretty huge, even if people don't much talk about it anymore. Dungeons and raids being at -5 is a big part of this. Less so for older raids but more so for newer ones. First encounter Crota still sucks to do with a group of intermediate players and Salvation's Edge is terrible to do with LFGs. Since this is the case, it's causing the player base to turn on itself. How many "oh I like the raid but I don't like doing it with LFGs" posts have you seen? I've seen hundreds.
One of the biggest parts of this game was the ability to do nearly any activity with any player. Sure some folks have less patience than others, but I used to love hanging out with raid sweats to do 20 minute chill GoS farms and then I used to also love doing quadruple sherpa Divinity runs. Now, with the raids being at -5, I'm still doing 20-25 minute GoS farms but quadruple sherpa Divinity runs are a royal pain in the -blam!- now.
This is no more personified than with Salvation's Edge. Each encounter requires participation of at least 4 players and upwards of 6. They all have time limits, and they are very unforgiving time limits. Plus, the most complex (not difficult, complex does not mean difficult) encounter is so poorly designed that it doesn't even give the player feedback that they're doing mechanics correctly. Imagine if you're doing a VoG and the oracles don't make any sounds, don't explode, and don't have kill feed notifications when you hit them. How much worse would VoG be to do with beginners?
These things were designed to make the game "harder" but the unintended consequence is that they've turned the player base against itself, introducing myriad gatekeeps to get into doing this kind of content. By now I'd usually have 50-60 clears of a new raid, with about half of them being sherpas. Now, I can't bring myself to do a Salvation's sherpa because I know I'll be in there for 6 hours, assuming the event gets completed at all.
I would rather have an extra 100,000 casuals roaming around willing to do LFG raids with me than 100 hardcore players who are "happy that everything suck" because it means they get that "dark souls challenge feel" out of a game that was never originally designed to be like that.
2. Grinds have become entirely meaningless
Once upon a time, we used to light level for +10 every season with a big jump during DLCs. While it was annoying to do back then, we had the benefit of becoming stronger and that strength was reflected in the game. A new raid is only about about +5 over the light cap after a new DLC. So, the players who wanted a challenge could get the new raid seal immediately and get their bragging rights that they had it before everyone else.
For everyone else, they could wait two seasons, become +25 (or more) over, and then the raid becomes easier since raids used to be capped at +20. The light level grind had an objective payoff. While the system had its flaws, the underlying system was genius. People who liked the challenge could do the hard stuff early. As the year progresed, casual players could out-level the content and do it easier, eventually catching up and by doing so, get more experienced with the game and get better overall.
The benefit is that new content was always a little difficult since we couldn't light level out of it right away, but then as that content aged, we'd level out of it. This gave us an underlying feeling of progression while also allowing new players to experience old content faster, getting them up to spec for the next wave of new content. Again, GENIUS, even if it had its flaws.
Now? We grind for light in a game where difficulty is completely static. We grind for weapons that are single-percentage points better than the weapons we already have. All content is the same all the time, making it more of a slog to get through as a new player, especially since the community has turned on itself in terms of "skill issue hurr hurr hurr". Seasonal challenges have upwards of doubled in terms of length while the payoff is exactly the same.
People liked Pantheon because the loot was insane and the emblems were amazing. Doing regular raids at Pantheon difficulty for the same single-percent chance at a raid exotic sucks and it's not fun. Doing longer seasonal challenges for the same amount of bright dust isn't fun. Having to go back and grind glimmer when most of us had stockpiles of legendary shards isn't fun. Potions aren't fun.
These grinds have become meaningless. Bungie has either forgotten or intentionally omitted the fact that back in the day, these grinds were annoying but at least they had a payoff. They have reintegrated old grinds and come up with new grinds while conveniently ignoring the payoff and the result is a LOT of game play that doesn't feel rewarding to do.
3. Core game modes have become stale
No new PvP maps, no new Gambit maps, and instead of opening up the vault and bringing back the dozen or so old strikes we used to have, Bungie has instead decided to saturate vanguard ops with Battlegrounds that were not designed or intended to be repeated infinitely.
It's boring, and stale, and is one of the biggest reasons people don't play those game modes. The results have been devestating on all three fronts. Nobody wants to hang out and chill while grinding vanguard ops anymore. PvP is a ghost town, preventing any well-meaning matchmaking system from ever working properly as the population dwindles, making it luck that people even get matches, let alone competitive ones. Gambit has actually regressed since 2020. It used to have two game modes (normal and prime) and there used to be gambit-specific armor that affected the mechanics like in raids. Now it's just a single round with no overly special loot like PvP and vanguard ops (via GMs) get.
Bungie has to get back to the basics if they're going to fix this stuff. We need more PvP maps, and raids that people actually want to do, and for our grinds to matter again. I would happily get online and do pathfinders if it meant I could out-level content again. I would happily go back to doing quadruple sherpa GoS runs if those raids were at +20. Salvation's Edge would be infinitely easier to teach if people could out-level it again.
Bungie, you have to take a step back and look at the big picture here. You are asking us to repeat all of these activities infinitely. However, you are making them less palatable to do at all, let alone dozens of hundreds of times. You have let your core playlists go to sh*t. You have turned your player base against itself, and you can't figure out for the life of you why this last month is the least people have played Destiny 2 in its entire history?
C'mon now. You know what the problem is. Fix it.
English
#destiny2
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Whoever came up with "bringing back the challenge to Destiny" whether it was Joe Blackburn himself or some other decision-maker he was the face for, completely crippled this game. Since Lightfall it has been nothing but a steep decline in my own friends leaving the game, only hopping on rarely or completely given up, all because of their idea of challenge was to make everything take longer for less payoff. They specifically stated we weren't dying enough, as if that was a factor that needed altering much like the removal of currencies and "economy balance" raising the costs of everything. There is nearly no sense of progression any longer, even with their Pinnacle grind that gets finished within a few weeks of a new season for no benefit other than getting high enough for GMs or Trials. I have no issue with the "difficulty" personally because of a vault filled with perfectly rolled weapons and years of solo flawless activities, but watching my friends and blueberries struggle is disheartening.
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Well put. I had every raid seal other than pantheon. Don’t even have a full salvations edge clear. Just a boss clear or two. Barrier to entry without at least four or five friends is pretty high. Still been on the dungeon as a couple of mates still play d2. But raiders 4 5 6 7 and 8 are all gone. My first d2 raid was leviathan and with an online guide and some patient sherpas got up the learning curve to eventually learn all the roles and teach some encounters myself. Just can’t be bothered to do that where it’s going to be a full day torture session. —- At a business level Bungie killed the goose that laid the golden egg. They diverted all resources to fairy geese and the main golden egg laying goose was left unfed and malnourished. Now its eggs are turds.
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I didn't read any of this, BUT... I agree, Buff Fusion Rifles 👍
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Everyone asked for that stuff. 🤤😂
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Finally a post that actually makes sense. All the ones that I've seen are those complaining about losing crafting this season when in reality all crafted weapons should be destroyed... but baby steps.
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Edited by Zoidberg: 12/23/2024 7:58:37 PM*standing ovation* 👏👏👏 T.H.I.S. 1000%
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I think most ppl did not log in to get shot at, or the fact that ''challenge'' is now superimposed in every facet of the game. I did not grind my guardian so i can die 5-6 shots or to a insanely well AI calculated shot from that psion 65498416 meters away who seemingly have amazing prophetic outcomes of where i am diving to next 5 out of 6 times. I kept my guardian up to date so i can blast the hell out of everyone, if i wanted a ''challenge'' i will gladly Q myself up in the LFG for a GM or sth. Most content did not need any sort of artificial gimp to player power or any system designed to frustrate players. Most contents will be teeming with players rather becuz most ppl would actually see and feel the fruits of their labours playing out. What's wrong with using Graviton to nuke a room full of adds? It's a gun with space magic and it's designed to wrap space time. A gun like that SHOULD nuke a continent, much less a single room with 16 adds all hiding in perfect spot ready to peek the moment u tweak ur mouse to the left. What's wrong with using Solar to blaze an entire room with ignition, exploding every single organism that shows up on ur game hub as a red bar? It was the selling point of Solar was it not along with substain? What's wrong with slowing and freezing an room with my icy tornado along with endless shurikens becuz my guardian has in lore, mastered the ways to manipulate darkness matters? It's a tornado and it's a thing of nature, have they seen cyclones in real life and the insane dmg they cause? What's wrong with being overpowered when my guardian literally has overcome a being insanely powerful with 11 other guardian colleagues alongside the entire Vanguard and their allies? Why must every guardian has to look for a new build every season becuz the previous season build no longer work or rendered ineffective? Why can't we simply have pure, unaltered fun instead of having tons of system designed to make you feel like you are working a 2nd job at Destiny in like 90% of the content you produce? The last ''fun'' content i could remember was Season of the Witch where you climb towers, proceed to bomb everything to bits, get your runes discovered and stack your cards over the week. That difficulty is perfect for 60% of the game.
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Fully Agree. Wait for Kevin McSweaty to tell us the game is too easy and too rewarding, and that’s why no one plays anymore.
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I know this isn’t going to win me any friends here, but I don’t care. Someone has to say it. “The game is hard”? Please. PvE in Destiny isn’t hard—it’s a choreography. Learn the steps, and you’re good to go. Sure, the occasional Psion might vaporize you from 50 meters away, but everything else in this game practically telegraphs its moves with jazz hands. The real problem? The beats of every mission. It’s like the same old tune on repeat, and don’t get me started on damage phases. They don’t reward skill—they reward time. The game isn’t asking you to “get good”; it’s asking you to block out your weekend. And look, if you’re not into challenges, that’s fine—stick to the laid-back missions. That’s what they’re there for. But if you’re chasing everything—if you want the loot, the triumphs, the shiny badges—you’re going to have to grind. That’s the deal with RPGs. You don’t get the full buffet because you showed up and smiled. The entitlement here is wild. The game hands out so much for free that rewards barely mean anything anymore. But whenever Bungie dares to put something unique behind actual effort—gasp!—the screeching begins. “Why can’t I have it without the grind? Why do I have to improve?” My guy, this isn’t a handout simulator. If you’re not willing to put in the time or effort, that’s fine! Know your limits—I know mine, and I don’t chase things I’m not willing to invest in. But stop whining when you don’t get what you haven’t earned. There, I said it. The real problem isn’t the game. It’s the “participation trophy” mindset trying to drag every studio into making games that cater to people who want it all with zero effort. Not every game needs to be a weekend warrior’s playground. Some things should require sweat. Mic dropped. Let the downvotes begin!
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We're down to only 3 reasons? Lets goooooooo
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I'm getting really sick of everyone dumping on Salvation's Edge. The Raid is perfectly fine. It requires most, if not all, of the team to participate. Yeah. That's what a Raid is. Sure, we got Raids that mostly prioritize ad control like Root of Nightmares and Eater of Worlds, but that is far from the norm of how most Raids operate. If you think it is, that's on you, not Bungie.
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What has turned me off this game personally, is the way it has evolved. I enjoyed the long power level grind. I enjoyed exploring every area of every planet and collecting materials. I enjoyed progressing from weak, white weapons and armour to green, blue and legendary. Getting an exotic piece of loot was actually exciting. And yes, the early end game content seemed much harder, but the hours of grinding and levelling up actually paid off. And to actually complete a raid for that special loot seemed so rewarding. This type of game was perfect for me....I could play and progress at my own pace without FOMO, and always had many personal friends and those we met online to meet up for team play. Many people might disagree with my preference, but there was a huge player base and always someone online to play with. It was changed to attract more players. Players who didn't like the grind. Players who wanted to do end game content the moment they logged on for the first time without the levelling up. Players who wanted to speed run everything to farm for loot that has been watered down to be near enough ineffective. This game has gone from a delicious, hearty, home made stew simmering for hours in a slow cooker, to a bland, tasteless microwave meal. Same basic ingredients but freeze dried, and ready in an instant, and I've lost my appetite. Bungie may have attracted new players, but I bet they have lost a hell of a lot more veteran players who enjoyed the old recipe.
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Now Salvations edge was designed to be the hardest raid, and i can respect that. I can't however understand why they made that decision when the majority of the players are casuals and the percentages of players who do raids is extremely low. I would fully understand if the raids were some of the most played activities, but they are not. I think the reason to why so little people are doing raids, is because they are scared. They think that they need to have the most meta builds out there and full knowledge of the game in order to complete them. The best thing would be for them to remove the negative power and especially on the older raids. This should make them more popular and allow more people to complete them and get used to raids.
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To me the game isn't hard and I really like having either weapons or abilities to use. I don't feel alienated from any playlist (apart from trials but that's fine). My issue is the game just isn't really interesting like it used to be. Mind you after 5k plus hours why would it be.
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1. Bugs 2. Streamers 3. Pete.
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The biggest problem is people like you calling 90% of the player base “casual”.
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Edited by LikwiD_SmOkE22: 12/23/2024 7:00:30 PMCan't argue against what you said. The -5 everywhere wasn't needed & immediately turns off the inexperienced from trying to get any experience in raids. They nuked the casual pve playlist. Nobody wants these awful modifiers in standard strikes. They should only be there for master/gmnf. Power leveling has finally become completely meaningless. I enjoyed it when it sort of meant something. Now it means absolutely nothing everywhere in the game. I don't care for destiny pvp but that doesn't mean i don't think those players deserve to be neglected for as long as they have. Not to mention all the bugs. All the bugs. There's been some kind of server issues literally everyday for the last two weeks if not longer.
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Solid post and well written. Nice to see feedback presented in an intelligent way.
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Great post. I do a lot of endgame help / teaching and have been focusing on GMs since the release of Salvation’s Edge. The raid is brutal to teach, and while simple is punishing. The other raid power changes suck too as they made old raids not worth running. Power used to mean something and is now just a number. As someone who maxes out power I am glad there is at least a power leader so I can run GMs with people who don’t want to sweat power levels.
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I don't do much endgame PvE but the biggest thing that sticks out to me from this is the power level delta actually. As someone that is for all intents and purposes a "casual" in PvE that change just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to my brain and then it seems like its supposed to be easier and harder at the same time and its easier for some people and harder for others due to artificial background junk. It makes it seem like there's things that you need to do that you really don't or like you did things that you didn't as long as you finished whatever activity. And like you said, with the power levels and stuff, it really highlights the fact that that part of the game has become more busywork than something that leads to a sense of satisfaction. I don't even understand it well enough to give any suggestions for how to fix it but I do know difficulty is changing when the new dlc comes out. But I'm just pointing that out because whatever's going on with it it wouldn't necessarily make me want to repeatedly do harder content. Especially when I'm already getting sbmm in vanguard strikes. Its like playing sbmm control and then having people wonder why you don't want to jump into comp after that.
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Deleting legend shards was a mistake. The only decent way that comes to mind now is farming altars of sorrow end chest. For gambit they should allow us to collect 20 like at release if you had all the collector gambit armour pieces to drop a giant taken centurion in. They should bring back pantheon too, or add a pantheon setting in the applicable raids where everything is unchanged except those 8 encounters, but only have a normal and master version.
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Finally something we can agree on. Its been 84 years
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TLDR [quote] 1. The way the game is currently designed alienates newer or more casual players while causing the rest to avoid playing with each other. 2. Grinds have become entirely meaningless 3. Core game modes have become stale C'mon now. You know what the problem is. Fix it.[/quote] 3 critical points. All well explained. Thanks
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Great post dude 🤙
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It is almost as though they are going out of their way to drive players out the door. This says all there is to say about the incompetence in the leadership
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Wall of text. I read it. Agree. But. The last but one season of last DLC, what did you expect? Suddenly all decisions of the last years being nullified? Enjoy what you still can as long as you can and get over it. THIS is not your life!