{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
8/5/2014 12:13:14 AM
1
-
[quote]Is that a valid justification?[/quote] [quote]Yes.[/quote] Seems valid to me. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing or do you actually have a point?
-
Edited by Frasier Crane: 8/5/2014 12:20:28 AMIt's a justification, but certainly not a valid one.
-
Validity is subjective. You still haven't answered [i]my [/i]question.
-
Edited by Frasier Crane: 8/5/2014 12:40:31 AM[quote]Validity is subjective.[/quote]Not in this context. Either it is rational (valid) or irrational (invalid). [quote]You still haven't answered [i]my [/i]question.[/quote]Well, I posed a question first and you have yet to answer it sufficiently. But no, I am not arguing for arguments' sake and my point is that saving your pet just because it means more to you is an irrational (invalid) way to come to a decision in a situation like this.
-
wat So basically, you're trying to say your subjectiveness is objective? Go back to garning, logfish.
-
That post made no sense and I suspect was a fallacious attempt to discredit my argument without actually having to present one of your own.
-
Blah blah blah....he has a valid point...for all he knows the random stranger could be a evil mass murderer. His dog on the other hand is not. Its simple. Stop trying to come off as smart ass.
-
Ha. [quote]for all he knows the random stranger could be a evil mass murderer.[/quote]Irrational attempt to justify saving the dog. The chances of the stranger being a mass murderer are incredibly slim. [quote]Stop trying to come off as smart[/quote]Not trying. I guess it comes naturally.
-
But there's always a slight chance. That's validation enough for me. Still its a matter of subjectivity. Not validation. Who cares what he chooses. Its his choice alone.
-
Edited by Raw Sugar: 8/5/2014 2:23:51 AMWell there's also a slight chance that you could be the stranger. So you're dead now. K? Is- is that cool? We're good? Alright. (:
-
Lol jokes on you!! I can swim!
-
Did you miss this?
-
Edited by Frasier Crane: 8/5/2014 1:19:47 AM[quote]But there's always a slight chance. That's validation enough for me.[/quote]No, because there's a greater chance he is [i]not[/i] a murderer and actually a productive member of society. [quote]Still its a matter of subjectivity. Not validation.[/quote]Validity and validation are two different things. I'm talking about validity. And no, we can cut through the subjectivity by determining what is the logical choice. [quote]Who cares what he chooses. Its his choice alone.[/quote]I suppose his line of thinking can have real-world repercussions. But this is a thought experiment, so naturally I'm going to think about it.
-
[quote]Validity and validation are two different things. I'm talking about validity. And no, we can cut through the subjectivity by determining what is the logical choice.[/quote] Ah, no. Humans are not cold, emotionless robots. If my dog is drowning, and some other nameless asshole is drowning right next to him, I will save my dog, because I have no emotional connection to the other guy. He might as well be a nonfactor.
-
Yes, and that is letting your emotions override logic. Which isn't rational.
-
Um, okay. Rationality has next to nothing to do with it, but whatever.
-
It has everything to do with making the ethical choice, yes.
-
Yes, well, fortunately for humanity at large, we make decisions based on both logic [i]and[/i] emotion. One is not better than the other. Fact is, humans were never [i]meant[/i] to be purely logical creatures; you're thinking of machines. If it's a choice between the emotional part of my brain telling me to save the pet that's given me happiness, companionship, and all that sappy shit, and the logical part of my brain telling me to save some guy I don't know because he might somehow benefit society, the emotional part will win out. That's not the logical response, that's the [i]human[/i] response.
-
[quote]One is not better than the other.[/quote]That's sentimental nonsense. There are many great things about emotions, but when they cloud judgement there is no doubt that they are undesirable. And in this scenario, they are clouding judgement. [quote]Fact is, humans were never [i]meant[/i] to be purely logical creatures; you're thinking of machines.[/quote]I never said that. I said we need to disregard emotion and use logic when faced with ethical dilemmas. [quote]If it's a choice between the emotional part of my brain telling me to save the pet that's given me happiness, companionship, and all that sappy shit, and the logical part of my brain telling me to save some guy I don't know because he might somehow benefit society, the emotional part will win out. That's not the logical response, that's the [i]human[/i] response.[/quote] Yes, people always try to justify their actions by saying "it's only human". I don't find that acceptable at all. We can acknowledge that certain human attributes are undesirable and make a conscious effort to overcome them.
-
[quote]That's sentimental nonsense. There are many great things about emotions, but when they cloud judgement there is no doubt that they are undesirable. And in this scenario, they are clouding judgement.[/quote] No, they are not. You have an emotional attachment to your pet, and no attachment at all to the guy. If you can save him too, go ahead. If you can't, odds are you'll gravitate toward the one that has personal significance. It isn't wrong. It's human nature. [quote]I never said that. I said we need to disregard emotion and use logic when faced with ethical dilemmas.[/quote] It's also an emotional dilemma, though. The logical response would be to save the human, the emotional response would be to save the pet. In high-stress situations, people will reflexively go for the emotional response. It's instinctive. Again, human nature. [quote]Yes, people always try to justify their actions by saying "it's only human".[/quote] And you're trying to justify your opinion by saying 'it's only rational'. [quote]I don't find that acceptable at all.[/quote] You don't have to. [quote]We can acknowledge that certain human attributes are undesirable and make a conscious effort to overcome them.[/quote] Saving your beloved pet's life in place of a stranger's is not an undesirable attribute. You can only save one, odds are it'll be the one you actually care about.
-
Edited by Frasier Crane: 8/5/2014 7:15:36 AM[quote]It isn't wrong. It's human nature.[/quote]I already addressed this. Your statement is a fallacy because you're brazenly implying that every aspect of "human nature" is automatically right. Obviously, that is absurd. [quote]It's also an emotional dilemma, though. The logical response would be to save the human, the emotional response would be to save the pet. In high-stress situations, people will reflexively go for the emotional response. It's instinctive. Again, human nature.[/quote]I never said anything about it being a logical dilemma or an emotional one. I said it was an [i]ethical[/i] dilemma, and therefore must be assessed rationally, not emotionally, to reach the correct decision. [quote]And you're trying to justify your opinion by saying 'it's only rational'.[/quote]...Yes, because either something makes sense ( rational ), or it doesn't ( irrational ). Please don't try these silly rhetorical games with me. [quote]Saving your beloved pet's life in place of a stranger's is not an undesirable attribute. You can only save one, odds are it'll be the one you actually care about.[/quote] Again, that is empty rhetoric. You're placing irrational value in [i]your[/i] interests and devaluing the interests of others (namely, the stranger and their loved ones who will almost certainly accumulate a greater amount of suffering from their death than you would solely from losing your dog. ) If you think choosing an overall greater amount of suffering instead of a smaller amount is a [i]desirable[/i] human attribute, then I have little else to say.
-
[quote]Your statement is a fallacy because you're brazenly implying that every aspect of "human nature" is automatically right. Obviously, that is absurd.[/quote] As is assuming the rational choice is automatically right. Obviously, that is absurd. [quote]I never said anything about it being a logical dilemma or an emotional one. I said it was an ethical dilemma, and therefore must be assessed rationally, not emotionally, to reach the correct decision.[/quote] And while you're busy rationalizing it to fit your prepubescent idea of morality, both have died. There is no ethically correct answer here - it's one life balanced against another life. I have an attachment to my pet, I have no attachment to the stranger, I'm going to save my pet. That's all there is to it. [quote]...Yes, because either something makes sense ( rational ), or it doesn't ( irrational ).[/quote] And it makes sense to save the one that has emotional attachment to you instead of the one that doesn't. Thus, it is rational to save the pet. [quote]You're placing irrational value in your interests and devaluing the interests of others (namely, the stranger and their loved ones who will almost certainly accumulate a greater amount of suffering from their death than you would solely from losing your dog.)[/quote] This means little to me. What matters is I can only save one, so I'll save the one I care about instead of the one that I don't. It's unfortunate that one has to die, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that. [quote]If you think choosing an overall greater amount of suffering instead of a smaller amount is a desirable human attribute, then I have little else to say.[/quote] Their family was never a part of the question. Let's stay in the realms of relevance, shall we?
-
Edited by Frasier Crane: 8/5/2014 9:02:01 AM[quote]As is assuming the rational choice is automatically right. Obviously, that is absurd.[/quote]I don't think even you know what you're talking about at this point. You may as well say "As is assuming the right choice is automatically right." Yes, it is. Please provide a substantial rebuttal instead of typing vapid sentences that crumble under any scrutiny. [quote]And while you're busy rationalizing it to fit your prepubescent idea of morality, both have died.[/quote]That is a highly amusing remark since you have made it painfully obvious that you do not understand ethical philosophy at all. And you're also ignoring the point of thought experiments in the first place. [quote]There is no ethically correct answer here - it's one life balanced against another life.[/quote]Incorrect. The person likely has a large web of people who care deeply about him and will suffer deeply from their death. That person is also capable of contributing far more to society than your dog. Simple utilitarian equation. [quote]And it makes sense to save the one that has emotional attachment to you instead of the one that doesn't. Thus, it is rational to save the pet.[/quote]You're confusing sensible with selfish. It makes sense to save the one that will result in less pain and suffering overall. [quote]Their family was never a part of the question. Let's stay in the realms of relevance, shall we?[/quote]Seriously? You're calling me out because, unlike you, I'm actually considering all the variables? You do realize that if a similar situation were to actually arise, these are variables you would need to consider too? It's a thought experiment. Thinking about it is the whole point.
-
[quote]You may as well say "As is assuming the right choice is automatically right."[/quote] No, [i]you[/i] assume rational = correct. You are wrong. Rationality conforms to one's beliefs. For instance, you're rationalizing your opinion as being 'correct' because the human might have people that would miss them. [quote]The person likely has a large web of people who care deeply about him and will suffer deeply from their death[/quote] You say this as though it's somehow relevant. The question is, 'would you save your pet, or a complete stranger?' Their family was never a factor. You threw it in yourself so you could [i]rationalize[/i] your belief that the human was more worthy of saving. If you were standing there, watching both drown, you wouldn't be thinking of that person's family, you'd be thinking of the beloved pet that's drowning right in front of you. The human mind does not stop to think about irrelevant details when [i]shit's happening [b]right now[/b][/i] and you need to deal with it. [quote]You're confusing sensible with selfish. It makes sense to save the one that will result in less pain and suffering overall.[/quote] You're confusing an emotional inquiry with a pragmatic one. It doesn't matter which one would be more 'rational' (to you) to save. Odds are you'd head for your pet first if you saw them drowning. That's how the human mind works. That's how it's [i]supposed[/i] to work. [quote]You're calling me out because, unlike you, I'm actually considering all the variables[/quote] Variables that were [i]never relevant and never factored into the initial question[/i]. The question was, 'who would you save?' OP never mentioned their family, or friends, or if they'd benefit society. It's merely your pet's life balanced against a human life. Just you, the pet, and the human. Anything else is a nonfactor. [quote]You do realize that if a similar situation were to actually arise, these are variables you would need to consider too?[/quote] I sure as hell wouldn't be able to stop and consider them when two living beings are drowning right in front of me. If I can only save one, I'll save the one that has more importance to me. It's unfortunate that the other guy dies, but there's nothing I can do about it by that point.
-
Edited by Frasier Crane: 8/6/2014 12:35:44 AM[quote]No, [i]you[/i] assume rational = correct. You are wrong. Rationality conforms to one's beliefs. For instance, you're rationalizing your opinion as being 'correct' because the human might have people that would miss them.[/quote]You're confusing rationality (the degree to which something is rational) with rationalizing (the attempt to make sense of your choices and actions). Rationality = logic. Either something makes sense, [i]consistently[/i], or it doesn't. If you really want to keep arguing against this, you're going to need to provide specific examples of how logic is inferior to illogic. [quote]You say this as though it's somehow relevant. The question is, 'would you save your pet, or a complete stranger?' Their family was never a factor. You threw it in yourself so you could [i]rationalize[/i] your belief that the human was more worthy of saving.[/quote]Again your line of thinking is incomplete. If you save your dog, you are already admitting there are outside parties you are trying to protect -- namely, yourself. Notice how the question is not "Who would you feel better saving" or "Who do your instincts tell you to save"? It can be answered in two ways, either by what choice is in your self-interest or what choice is ethical. I'm discussing the latter, but you seem determined to change over to the former. [quote]If you were standing there, watching both drown, you wouldn't be thinking of that person's family, you'd be thinking of the beloved pet that's drowning right in front of you. The human mind does not stop to think about irrelevant details when [i]shit's happening [b]right now[/b][/i] and you need to deal with it.[/quote]No, [i]your[/i] mind doesn't stop to think about the details. If you read this thread you will see that many people opt to save the stranger, so stop making false assertions to try and strengthen your argument. And, again, that isn't the point. We aren't discussing what the [i]intuitive[/i] choice is, we're discussing the [i]ethical[/i] choice. Thought experiment, not Instinct experiment. Keep this in mind when you reply.
