[quote]Without the meat from animals you would not be on this planet today or even have your opinion!![/quote]Irrelevant. Our ancestors did plenty of immoral things that we don't continue to do today. [quote]There is no reason to turn vegan, in fact you are less healthy that a meat eater, so get your facts straight.[/quote]There are plenty of ethical reasons to do so. And no, a vegan diet is just as healthy as a meat based one when done properly. This is a fact. [quote]yes, caging animals to make them fatter, or drugging them is of course wrong.[/quote]You just listed a reason to turn vegan. [quote]Meat, dairy and fish could all be supplied in a humane way of course.[/quote]Except they are not, so it is only sensible to stop eating them anyway. Simply preaching your ideals of how things [i]should[/i] be and thinking that makes it okay to keep doing something is insincere and irrational. And "killed humanely" is an oxymoron anyway, because it was never necessary to kill them in the first place. [quote]in regards to the veggies you eat today, most likely the larger percentage are not native to your country. Just like the animals we eat, the majority would not survive without the assistance of Human intervention.[/quote]That has nothing to do with killing animals for food. [quote]you cannot have everything you want in this life.[/quote]A poor excuse. We must make the most of our life to help others and leave the world a better place than we found it. [quote]Don't cut the trees down (write a letter petition on paper...) paper comes from trees...[/quote]Paper can be sustainably sourced. [quote]Stop global warming (bet you have an unreliable VW hippy van that east petrol...[/quote]None of these are relevant to the discussion at hand. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque [quote]You don't like the way that it's killed? Would you risk your life for a cows?[/quote]Again this has nothing to do with being against animal farming. There is no need to risk anyone's life because the solution is simple -- stop unnecessarily killing animals. [quote]As you can see this might be a bit drastic...[/quote]Yes, and it didn't make a relevant point. [quote]But at the end of it all just proves, there is balance in this world and without it, we would all be absolutely FU**ED just like the vegans!! Thank you[/quote]What are you talking about? The world would be much more prosperous, and compassionate, and [i]balanced[/i] if we stopped eating animal products.

In argument... So I guess you ride a bike to work? I guess you only use recycled paper? You don't eat sweets? Etc Lying just enforces my point! All subjects of modern society which involved killing animals to stay alive... You're life is based on survival, you are gifted with the chance to be at the top of the food chain. What do you think would happen if the world stopped eating meat... It would be a happy place?? Wow... That is a crazy statement. Maybe if you were a green fighting to stop the wars in this world I could agree. But preventing us from eating meat, would cause global starvation... A dairy cow can produce 20,000lbs of milk with the ability to feed 20,000 people per year, with 2 glasses of milk per day. How many people can 1 carrot feed? How long does it take to grow that carrot, and how much land do you need to capacitate enough carrots to feed 20,000 people?? Mate you need a reality check... Our genetics are designed to be able to sufficiently grow from eating meat alone. Vegans need all sorts of supplements... Out teeth are designed to be able to rip meat from bone, just like any other predator. Face the facts... a dolphin eats fish, but is cleaver enough to decide that if the fish is not big enough to eat it is not eaten. On the other hand, a starving wolf in Russia, will eat any sort of meat It can get it's teeth on. So if the wolf got the chance to eat you, it surely would!! Animal instinct vs intellect!! You are wrong. Please understand that we eat meat because we like it, but we also want to survive. Just Enjoy your veggies with your "mouth closed" meat eaters live in reality brother, veggies see with 1 eye shut. Kill or be killed, eat or starve.

Did you not see my link? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque Whether I ride a bike or eat sweets (what?) has [b]nothing[/b] to do with unnecessarily killing animals for food. [quote]All subjects of modern society which involved killing animals to stay alive...[/quote]Do they actively kill animals now? No. What happened in the past is impossible to change. I'm concerned with what's happening right now. [quote]You're life is based on survival[/quote]Obviously, but you are making the flawed connection between survival in [i]the wild[/i] and survival in [i]first world society[/i]. In matters of life or death, extreme measures are often necessary. Average people have been known to commit cannibalism when they are stranded in remote corners of the world. Does this mean we should eat each other in society? Of course not. "Survival" for you and me is merely a case of driving to the supermarket. [quote]you are gifted with the chance to be at the top of the food chain.[/quote]And you think being born into the human species -- totally by luck -- entitles us to kill other animals whenever we please? Animals who were born into their species by the same token of luck? How arrogant. Being born as humans, we actually have an [b]obligation[/b] to make the most of our unique abilities -- abilities to make the world a better place for everyone, including fellow species. [quote]What do you think would happen if the world stopped eating meat... It would be a happy place?? Wow... That is a crazy statement.[/quote]Except I never made that statement, you did. I said that if the world became vegan, 60 billion land animals would be spared suffering and death each year, and we would obviously be more compassionate as a species because we share the same concern for animal welfare. [quote]But preventing us from eating meat, would cause global starvation...[/quote]This is factually incorrect. How do you think the animals you eat are fed? With crops. 60% of the world's grain and 70% of soy are fed to livestock. If you understand trophic levels you should know that this is very inefficient. We only get about a tenth of the energy back from their meat. Ironically, the meat industry is actually a major cause of world hunger. [quote]A dairy cow can produce 20,000lbs of milk with the ability to feed 20,000 people per year, with 2 glasses of milk per day. How many people can 1 carrot feed?[/quote]That is such an absurdly broken comparison it doesn't even need to be addressed. You forgot about all the food it takes to feed the cow, by the way. [quote]Mate you need a reality check[/quote]On the contrary, I've woken up. I used to eat meat just like you. Conditioned from an early age. But I eventually became concerned with the truth above all (not just in regards to veganism), and began researching the facts. And my eyes opened very quickly. [quote]Our genetics are designed to be able to sufficiently grow from eating meat alone.[/quote]That is a patently false and unscientific statement. Please provide a source confirming this. [quote]Vegans need all sorts of supplements...[/quote]So do meat eaters. You didn't think vitamin companies make most of their money from vegans, did you? As usual, they are a small minority. Here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/5-common-nutrient-deficiencies-and-what-to-do-about-them/#axzz3CaE3ofBh [quote]Out teeth are designed to be able to rip meat from bone, just like any other predator.[/quote]I never denied that we evolved the ability to eat animals. It has nothing to do with whether, ethically, we [b]should [/b] do it. [quote]Face the facts... a dolphin eats fish, but is cleaver enough to decide that if the fish is not big enough to eat it is not eaten. On the other hand, a starving wolf in Russia, will eat any sort of meat It can get it's teeth on. So if the wolf got the chance to eat you, it surely would!! Animal instinct vs intellect!![/quote]Okay? How is that relevant? A wolf cannot comprehend right from wrong. Your argument refutes itself because wolves eat humans -- just because they do it, should we? Should we eat each other? What other animals do has [b]nothing[/b] to do with what we should do. [quote]Please understand that we eat meat because we like it, but we also want to survive.[/quote]You "survive" by driving to the store. Where there are plenty of plant-based options available. [quote]Just Enjoy your veggies with your "mouth closed" meat eaters live in reality brother, veggies see with 1 eye shut. Kill or be killed, eat or starve.[/quote]I hope I have provided sufficient evidence to show that it is in fact meat eaters that have been duped. Like I said, I used to eat meat too. We are indoctrinated into it by the food industry at an early age, and never give it much thought. Only when we realize the facts, and see how irrational our defenses are, do we realize how easily we were manipulated. That's the crucial difference between a vegan and a stubborn meat eater: one values truth more than comfort and convenience. And at some point the excuses just don't cut it anymore.

I am using an iPhone to reply to this, so understand I cannot use the quote system. However referring to the points you have made most recently. You said a wolf cannot comprehend right from wrong? Effectively naming it "immoral" unable to decide whether it kills animals to survive or for fun... Haha this makes me laugh so much, a wolf is an unbelievable intelligent mammal that can survive the harshest conditions on earth, and does so by eating meat. Do you think if the wolf lived on the beach lazing in the sun with a cocktail enjoy the view it would turn down a nice juicy stake? Is that because it is too "stubborn" to choose a stick of celery... No my friend, the wolf enjoys eating meat just like the majority of the planet. You are the minority, fighting an endless battle. I don't need quotes from the internet that were sourced using biased search references. If I google meat or veggies, there will be more posts about how veggies are better for you, the number 1 reason for that is... Because only vegans open up a complaint about it... Everything I say is off the cuff, I have enough experience in my life to make up my own decision on what is right or wrong and yes I am a realist. - I don't agree with cruelty to animals - I agree with the oxymoronic saying "kill in a humane way" (would you rather bleeding to death or being shot in the head? Maybe you should answer that because with what is going on in the world today, unfortunately some humans have to make that choice aswell!!) - I don't believe in wasting food, or cooking unnecessarily. - I am on the same page as you for a lot of valid points on how we treat this "world" we call home. And for you to turn round and dismiss my point about the past, really invigorates me to reply to you about the future. If you don't look at the past, your eyes will never see the future and what can be made of it. I don't live in the history of mankind I live in the future, where there is meat. Meat is the past, present and future. This could be said for you to read. But at this Moment 100,000s of cows are being killed, and 1,000,000s of people are eating steak right now, most of them are enjoying it. Whilst you and your group of supposed humanitarians are complaining about why we should not eat it. I am stubborn yes. But as you said you once ate meat, now you don't. Most likely a personal decision related to personal health factors, is the reason why you don't eat it now... Do you feel empowered to convert others to your "religion" do you believe that you are the voice in the darkness that can bring us to light?? Will I die if I don't convert? "After life is death, after eating is pooing, after rain there is sun, after after was before..." The world keeps spinning and spinning and you or I will not live any longer than each other, I'm not scared of death just like the poor cow. If I was going to be murdered or beheaded like the poor sufferers recently, I would cry at the thought of not being able to hold my family, friends, fiancé... Not that I would miss my veggies!!! A leopard never changes it's spots... Stop going out of your way to selfishly invoke the atrocities that are committed by humans onto others who are just enjoying this very short Moment in this vast spiritual universe. You once ate meat, but your opinion is no more valid. You enjoyed the taste and you benefited from the nutrition. So what you have had enough of eating it. Keep it to yourself! I replied because I have a friend who recently converted to vegetarian abruptly, now he thinks he's Gandhi... One day you will realise what you're missing. Maybe when your 60 years old. Don't come back with some stupid comment about how my points were not valid, as I didn't have to use google to answer my questions...