You aren't even sticking with your initial argument anymore. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts It's our "right" to kill other animals? "We rule the earth"? How can people believe this nonsense? You don't rule the earth. You were, by total luck, born into your species, race, gender and community. And you think that this luck, which you can take no responsibility for, entitles you to kill and eat other animals at leisure. Animals that were, by the same token of chance, born into their species. How utterly, deplorably arrogant. "Prey without their predators does more harm than good"? How do these statements even seem sensible to you? Firstly, we are not the natural predators of cows, pigs, chickens and lambs. You made a patently false and unsupported claim. Provide a source to back it up. Secondly, these are not animals we simply pluck out of the wild -- we breed them in specialized farms. They have no effect on the ecosystem whatsoever (except for the greenhouse gas emissions, which obviously doesn't work in your favour).

"[quote]Prey without their predators does more harm than good"? How do these statements even seem sensible to you? Firstly, we are not the natural predators of cows, pigs, chickens and lambs. You made a patently false and unsupported claim. Provide a source to back it up. Secondly, these are not animals we simply pluck out of the wild -- we breed them in specialized farms. They have no effect on the ecosystem whatsoever (except for the greenhouse gas emissions, which obviously doesn't work in your favour).[/quote] Predation: Noun "A form of symbiotic relationship between two organisms of unlike species in which one of them acts as predator that captures and feeds on the other organism that serves as the prey." Do we not capture (farm houses) and feed on these organism? That sounds like a predator to me. [spoiler]sorry I missed this when reading this the first time.[/spoiler]

Technically you are saying that we were all souls and we just fell into life by chance, which is horribly ass-backwards. This whole ideology that you can just be simply born into a random species contradicts all logical belief. How am I not sticking with my initial argument? I'm clearly restating that eating meat isn't some unholy atrocious act that you sensitive -blam!-s make it to be. What the hell is up with you thinking that eating meat is inhumane? Do you think I want to kill animals for fun? Do you think that eating meat means that I stab pieces of meat in a insane frenzy? I eat meat because it's delicious as hell, and it's a good source of protein when you have right portions. There are also substances essential to a healthy body that are in meat not found in plants and vice versa. A balanced diet is better than a strict meat or herb one. Humans eat meat [b]and[/b] plants, not one or the other. We are omnivores by nature. You can't blame nature for being natural.

[quote]Technically you are saying that we were all souls and we just fell into life by chance, which is horribly ass-backwards.[/quote]Stop making straw men. I said nothing of the sort. I said that you are not responsible for being human any more than a cow is responsible for being a cow. And yet you think you are more entitled than the cow. This is the pinnacle of human conceit. [quote]How am I not sticking with my initial argument? I'm clearly restating that eating meat isn't some unholy atrocious act that you sensitive -blam!-s make it to be.[/quote]And yet the evidence you present for this, these flawed appeals to "nature", have been easily exposed. Simply throwing in a few childish insults and repeating yourself relentlessly doesn't make them any more valid. [quote]What the hell is up with you thinking that eating meat is inhumane?[/quote]Another straw man. I never made such a vague statement as "eating meat is inhumane". I said that [b]needlessly exploiting and killing animals is unethical.[/quote] [quote]Do you think I want to kill animals for fun? Do you think that eating meat means that I stab pieces of meat in a insane frenzy? I eat meat because it's delicious as hell, and it's a good source of protein when you have right portions.[/quote]I'm amazed you didn't notice your contradiction here. You said you don't want to kill animals for fun (pleasure), but that you support killing them because they're delicious. That is killing them for pleasure. For fun. There's no rational way to deny this. Protein is abundant in plant sources. [quote]There are also substances essential to a healthy body that are in meat not found in plants and vice versa.[/quote]There are no nutrients in meat that cannot be obtained from non-animal sources. This is a fact. [quote]A balanced diet is better than a strict meat or herb one.[/quote]You have moved the goalposts again, from the moral implications of killing animals to the health benefits. Of which there are none. A properly structured plant-based diet is not lacking in anything. [quote]Humans eat meat [b]and[/b] plants, not one or the other. We are omnivores by nature. You can't blame nature for being natural.[/quote]Please stop saying this. It has already been put to rest.

I appreciate your passion and your argumentative skills. Thanks for the new word aswell. Please take a look at this article: http://authoritynutrition.com/5-brain-nutrients-in-meat-fish-eggs/

I was careful to put "non-animal sources" instead of just plants. There are vegan options for all essential nutrients, be it through plants, supplements or fortified foods. I met my daily requirements for B12 and creatine for breakfast.

[quote]There are vegan options for all essential nutrients, be it through plants, supplements or fortified foods.[/quote] You can get all of the essential nutrients through supplements. Hell, you could just chug pills all day and still get what you need to live, but let's be honest here, would that really appeal to anyone? Now if you simply do not like the taste of meat or itself in general then that's perfectly fine, but you cannot say that eating something* that you don't like to eat is unethical and senseless, that's just ignorant. [Spoiler]* edible foods that have a healthy nutritional value. Just incase if you wanted to make the argument that a person would eat dog shit or something if of the sort[/Spoiler]

You cannot "chug pills all day" and manage to live healthily. Your body needs calories, amino acids and digestive enzymes to break down and absorb the proper nutrients. It has been shown repeatedly that this is sustainable through a vegan diet. I find it rather dishonest when people reduce it to simply "food". "Oh, how is it unethical? It's just food." No, it's not. Without getting too preachy, sentient animals are subjected to unimaginable pain and suffering (and obviously death) before becoming that neat little piece of food on your plate. There [b]are[/b] ethical concerns here. Serious ones.

Just like you held me up to the standard, I need a source. [spoiler]any non-Wikipedia site would be preferred[/spoiler]

http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/help-vitamin-supplement Rather unsurprisingly, there aren't many articles dedicated to this because it's pretty obvious (no offense). Without calories, you'll die. Vitamins don't have calories. And they won't be digested.

What seems interesting is that this came up around page 3 of the article you suggested. [spoiler] Most adults and children don’t get enough calcium, vitamin D, or potassium according to the 2010 Dietary Guidelines. Potassium-rich foods, including fruits, vegetables, dairy, and [b]meat[/b] are the best ways to fill in potassium gaps. [/spoiler] Also this, [spoiler] Anyone whose diet lacks the 40-plus nutrients needed for good health may benefit from vitamin and mineral supplements. In general, the following groups can be helped, but they should consult their doctor or a registered dietitian when deciding if they need a supplement or choosing one: •Pregnant and lactating women •[b]Vegans and some people on vegetarian diets[/b] •Anyone on a low-calorie diet (intentional and unintentional) •Certain disease states (including people with a history of cancer) •People who suffer from food allergies or intolerances •Picky eaters who limit food groups, or have limited variety within food groups •Anyone with a poor diet •People taking certain medications [/spoiler] This proves that having a vegan diet does not let you acquire all the nutrients your body needs and you would need to rely on supplements for the those not found in your diet. This whereas I also find in the article, [spoiler] Think nutritious food first, and then supplement the gaps. Start by filling your grocery cart with a variety of nourishing, nutrient-rich foods. Use the federal government's My Plate nutrition guide to help make sure your meals and snacks include all the parts of a healthy meal. [/spoiler] Cannot find a link to a direct picture, but if you scroll down to the page I'll cite, you will see a bar-organized list http://www.disabled-world.com/fitness/nutrition/myplate.php

I never denied that meat is a more efficient way of acquiring certain nutrients. I am saying that a vegan diet, while needing marginally more attention, is still perfectly viable. And health isn't the only concern. If it were we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You also have to consider that people will have different morals than you. Moralities and a personal sense of logic is what makes individuals think differently. One person might have the same ethical standards as you, i.e. Other vegans on this matter, as another person would disagree such as myself. The same thing can be said to a Christian and an atheist as well as a liberal to a conservative. *this is returning to a comment where you said about this being an ethical matter*

"Personal sense of logic " Literally no such thing. Logic is objective. If it didn't exist outside of subjective preference, and irrationality, it wouldn't exist at all. I suppose people can [i]think[/i] they have a personal sense of logic, but that doesn't mean their beliefs are actually logical. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww&persist_app=1&app=desktop&gl=AU&hl=en-GB&client=mv-google]Well worth watching.[/url]

[quote]I suppose people can [i]think[/i] they have a personal sense of logic, but that doesn't mean their beliefs are actually logical.[/quote] Exactly what I tried to say but couldn't for lack of a better word, but I suppose you picked up on the point I was making. The Internet is full of people who think that their beliefs are the best and the most logical (in their mind) and those people love to start a debate on how the other person is an idiot and they are the only logical person, when in reality, they are just sheep who will follow on something and defend it until death. But to stay on the issue, I'm sure, for the most part, that people regardless of how and what they eat, care about the well being of animals. But humans [b]are[/b] animals and we will never stop being animals. Animals eat other animals, animals tend to stay in groups, animals also care for their young, and [b]only[/b] their young. This behavior is in our society because we are what we eat.

I really would appreciate it if you watched the video (assuming you haven't). Yes, we are animals, but we are also the only animals that are cognitively developed enough to discern right from wrong (that we know of). This places more responsibility upon us than other, less developed animals.

Oh I did. It's a very good watch indeed. I see your points and why you are vegan, but frankly I just don't agree with it in general. Let's just agree to disagree because we are just throwing out points that aren't swaying the either of us. Good luck to you and your endeavors.