Okay so this long I've defended those who had iron banner gear, I myself actually rocked the gauntlets on my hunter. I liked the perk more than the raid gear not to mention they were sexy. I still have the full raid set up for my hunter (vog that is). I am now rocking gear to hit lvl 31 solely for Crotas end. Upon reset I was dead set on doing the nightfall, then the vog, then crotas end. I stumbled upon a big hiccup. A friend of mines friend helped us with the nightfall and he did wonderful. He said he was experienced in the vog hard so I took that and ran with it. We hopped in the vog and everything was copistetic up until we got to the oracles. He didn't know the spawns. He had a Maxxed icebreaker 2.0 though. We showed him where to stand to hit the hidden oracle on the right. All good, we got to the templar. No problem, aside from him blowing himself up during detainment. Gorgons maze, breeze up until we get to the jumping blocks. It took us 20 minutes to show him how to jump over. Then the gatekeepers, oh god don't get me started. An hour, atheon 2 hours later and I'm so angry I'm laughing continously to prevent myself from flipping out. I still have yet to beat atheon on one character. I then checked his grimoire after leaving to see a low 1000 grimoire. Inspect his player and he's rocking nothing but vanguard crap with unmaxed weapons. He had no idea of the concept after trying to explain to him what was going on. Picking up the relic when we told him to strictly not to. He was just incompetent. I'm not trying to be a dick but inspect these players before you waste your time. If a player wants to learn, sure no problem. But when I have a team full of people who have ran it plenty of times and want to finish the vog in 30 minutes it's kind of annoying. We had other things to do, and I have never even on my first vog hard mode taken 5 hours to not even beat atheon. Messed my whole schedule up for today. If their grimoire is low, probabilities are that he/she is highly inexperienced. To those players who are inexperienced and do not know what they're doing.... just tell us. Most people do not care to help. Don't go in blind and more importantly don't waste our time.