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originally posted in: Crota's end glitch collection
Edited by JerkStoleMyName: 12/20/2014 3:19:26 PM
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I'm going to resonate something someone else said, which is that, instead of worrying about glitches that players are going to exploit, your concern should be on game mechanics that haven't so much as been addressed in writing, let alone fixed yet. There are dozens of level-specific issues, some already listed elsewhere, so I won't do so again. I've written about general ones in my own threads, such as the sprint screwing up and not working for several seconds. Or how about the completely amateur mess-up of not allowing users to skip the cut scenes, which, if you consider how often we have to replay missions, would be a GREATLY appreciated addition. How about [i]actually[/i] balancing the Crucible. Or we can talk about things that simply don't make sense. How does it make sense to allow players to buy their way up to level 31? Have they even stopped to consider what this does to the game? VoG becomes almost useless. There's absolutely no reason or incentive to even do it. Screw that, just work on the new raid. The gear is better, anyway. And why not make universal consumables and materials totally universal, rather than having to trade them back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, without any way to split a stack of items. Truth is, these are the things that gamers should be creating posts about over and over and over again until Bungie decides to listen. Going through the effort to report the exploits--when you haven't even attempted the raid--makes you look extremely ignorant. It isn't your responsibility or prerogative to do so. These issues are Bungie's. As a gamer, trying to tell others how they have to play is both presumptuous and offensive. If you want to do it legit, then no one is stopping you, and no amount of patching will change the game for you. You're duping yourself if you think that the quality of the items change depending on how they are obtained. Is there really a difference between buying an Icebreaker and getting one as a drop? I got mine as a drop, but if I hadn't, I would've bought it from Xur. Is the value any different? Not at all. Fact is, the value of any item is determined by the user of that item, especially as there is no trading system, and so no global value scheme. I prefer scout rifles, someone else prefers hand cannons. Their values are determined by their wielders. Lastly, it's not for you to decide how anyone should feel in regard to obtaining gear. That, as with before, is presumptuous and insulting. Bottom line is that it's a game, and in the grand scheme there's no real challenge to obtaining stuff. Actually, there's nothing to even obtain: it's all digital, and none of it even exists. So all that is required is enough time and patience. Do not think that you have any right to tell me or anyone else how we should feel when we get gear. That's not your call. Period. So if you're going to do anything, then do something--point out and discuss things--that might contribute to actually fixing the game. Glitches in raids do not fit this criteria. Broken mechanics, poor balancing, missing content, and missing features do.
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  • ~There are bugs everywhere in destiny. This fact doesn't change anything about my post. ~Crucible is balanced. Unless you mean on a skilled matchmaking level. If not please elaborate. ~You and anyone else that makes that claim either has little to no MMO backround experience or doesn't agree with it. Destiny is not a fully fledged MMO. But it borrows plenty of elements from them. It's called gear progression. Base game gear is never going to be the best gear to roll with when later content comes around. Bungie introducing new ways to hit 30-31 addresses 2 issues. Variety among armor (which was a huge complaint) and it helps out those who simply could never get raid gear despite how many completions they got. The new raid is supposed to be smarter and base your drops off of previous ones so hopefully that won't be an issue again. ~It seems either you lack the reading skills required for basic conversation or you didn't read at all. I'm not telling anyone how to play. I'm not saying people who cheese or exploit are bad. And Me attempting it or not doesn't change the facts. Those true and proven glitches and bugs. I don't have to use/experience them in order for them to be valid points. You're straw manning. It's my right as a person and to me, my duty as a gamer who cares about the games he plays to try and help improve the game. ~When did i say obtaining through cheesing made the gear less "worth?" No really, when did I? I believe my exact words were "I want people to feel like they earned their gear." That in no way shape or form states how I feel. It's your false assumption to believe so.

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  • My response ended up being longer than is allowed in one post, so I've divided it up into parts. (Part 1) To the first point, we can look at the different glitches/bugs (though we're more explicitly talking about exploits in this case) and see how they affect the players, and then objectively discuss which are the most pressing, important, and/or game-breaking by how they universally negatively affect players. From there, glitches that users utilize to get through a more difficult part of the game have very little negative impact to the individual player, to yourself, or to the other players, which is your claim. Certainly, the game designers might notice players exploiting these things and decide to remove them. However, that's not what you're taking issue with, or the principle on which you base your argument. Your point is to argue that it negatively affects the overall game experience by somehow diminishing the value of the items gained, or how satisfied the player is after attaining the items. I hope I've shown that such an argument is essentially invalid in the context of Destiny. Were there a P2P trading system, then each item WOULD have a value, based on rarity and usefulness and such, which would then be negatively affected by players getting them easier, but that is not the case. It's a case of you, for some reason that makes very little sense when you fully consider it, feeling slighted because someone got something(s) that you didn't much easier than you. That you haven't tried the raid yet is inconsequential, because you're making the argument as if you [i]have[/i] tried it. To the second point, the crucible is absolutely not balanced, or fair. Inclusion of the supers, more so than anything else, is wholly unbalanced in its implementation. For one, it creates a trump card that is 95% unblockable or unavoidable, no matter how good a player you are. Worse, it's incredibly easy for a group to set off a chain reaction where each player can use their supers in close sequence. How is that balanced? Sure, all players get them, but that doesn't make it balanced. Being balanced means not giving an unfair advantage to one player over another, or at least minimizing the advantage. An example of this is having better weapons, which they balanced by scaling damage. No attempt was made to balance supers, however. Consider for a moment the GREATER impact supers play in Skirmish, where close-knit teamwork and strategy are essential. In Skirmish, supers are hugely unfair. Now, if there were a barebones gametype where the supers were removed, THEN you could make a good argument that the game is balanced. I have a great amount of experience with MMOs, actually. I played EQ for several years, starting at Velious and then up through PoP, and then I played WoW for the first couple of years after it released. I even played FFXI for a while when it first released. I've also played a very large number of other level-based multiplayer games in general. So my credentials are there, though that is entirely irrelevant. To the point, though, we're not talking about how other games--MMO or otherwise--implement their level system, though we can certainly draw comparisons. We're discussing Destiny. In and of itself, there's nothing wrong with the level system. I like it, actually, and it feels very fair. You said it yourself, though, that Destiny is not a full-fledged MMO. Given that, they have a very limited amount of content. Whereas other games had several instances or raids to choose from, Destiny only gives two, and they aren't even at the same level. If we're drawing comparisons to other games, in WoW, you have level 15-20ish instances, and then there are level 25-30ish instances. Granted this is all based on player choice, but the purpose of the first is to prepare the player for the next instances they can attempt. Across the board, the gear gained in those instances is better than anything you'll get by buying from vendors. Moreover, and I admit that this is a difference of game design, whereas most other games do not allow you to buy your level through items (excluding websites that sell items for money, and buying gear for a second toon), Destiny's design DOES allow this. Yes, this is part of the design. However, that Destiny allows players to buy gear that is [i]better[/i] than what they can get in the first raid makes very little sense. To make a comparison (but again excluding players having high-level chars and buying stuff for a low-level char), this would be like allowing a player to easily buy high-end raid gear that's better than what can be found in the raids themselves. Back to Destiny, since it only has the two raids, then Bungie shoots themselves in the foot either by not making VoG a requirement to do Crota, or by not scaling the gear in VoG up so it still has value. Now VoG is nothing more than something you can do just to get Ascendant materials. Would this matter in a larger game? Not at all. In Destiny, though, it matters, because there's precious little content. The game has spun so close to redundancy that it's saddening. Replacing old gear is nothing more than doing the very same content as before (with only a few new things here and there, but those are the same in application), and then having to wait, and wait, and wait. Instead of killing Hive majors, now we kill sword bearers. So you're right in that it solves the "issue" of players not getting gear for the new raid, but it creates an all-new problem that I've just explained. This isn't a smart solution. Fixing the drops so they're even just a bit more frequent is a viable solution. Or better, if they'd have planned better, they could have scaled the game and leveling a bit differently so each piece of armor could be found in VoG on normal, and all four pieces would get you ready for VoG on hard. Then, if the drops were slightly more frequent, they could get gear from this that would prepare for Crota on normal, which would in turn prepare for Crota on hard. Because, again, with the lack of content, they can't afford to allow players to so easily skip the first raid entirely, which they've effectively done. On the point about variety, this is completely false. The amount of gear being sold by vendors is the same as before, only slightly more powerful. That isn't adding variety; it's adding replacements. Completely different. So the names are different and some of the abilities are different. So what? It's still the same, with the first helmet adding Int/Disc and the second adding Int/Str. Again, that's not variety.

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  • (Part 2) Moving on, if you're going to try and tell me that none of what you originally posted even remotely implies either, that people who cheese are doing something that's bad (by, as you said, negatively affecting the "quality" of items?) and/or that posting all of these glitches with the direct intent to help Bungie change them so to purposefully prevent others from using them, and that this is not in any way you trying to control how others play or tell them how they should play, then I'm sorry to say that my first instinct is going to be to call you a liar, because it certainly feels that doing so means that you're either being dishonest with me, or with yourself (or maybe both; these aren't mutually exclusive). You very clearly and explicitly dictate in your opening paragraph how you think players should feel for gaining items in the raid, and that the manner in which other players get through the raid somehow diminishes something for you. So it comes off as extremely dishonest if you're going to spin your argument to now sound like you're "doing your duty as a gamer." This is absolutely not what your intention is. Fine, I can easily concede that whether or not you attempt the raid does not change that the glitches exist. However, that in no way invalidates any of my other points. More importantly, those exploits do not make the game unplayable or unbeatable, unlike when running through the portal in VoG doesn't always pull you out. One of these obviously need to be fixed, and the other does not matter in the grand scheme. So no, you're not allowed to try and play that card, as if it's your "duty." That won't work. Your only duty is to yourself. At best, you can try to make the argument that "you feel inclined to help fix issues in the game," but then I'll come back to my other points: these [glitches] are not things gamers need to press Bungie about, because they don't directly affect you. If you were only reporting the bugs--ie: things that explicitly prevent you from beating the raid, such as the portal in VoG--then I would say that you're 100% right, as those directly impact your player experience. Other players using glitches to beat the raid [i]does not affect you[/i]. As I also said before, there are a great deal of other things that, should players feel like speaking out, would be generally and universally far more effective or necessary. Since you apparently missed where you made a declaration about item worth, I'll just C&P it for you (it's in your opening paragraph, actually): "I want everyone who gets the loot from the raid to feel like they earned it. Instead of the quality being deminished (sic) because people just cheesed it." No assumptions on my part at all. The second sentence very explicitly makes a statement about "quality," which is the same in this sentence as "value." Here, they are entirely synonymous, unless there's some mysterious meaning for it that I'm unaware of. Unfortunately, I feel like I have break this way, way down. There are several "quality" possibilities here. 1) There's an abstract value in the item, based on the use-value to the individual using it. 2) There's a "monetary" value in the item, based on rarity. 3) There's a personal, abstract value that you give the item based on how easy you feel it was for you to obtain. What you'll find is that the second has no significance in Destiny, and the other two are based entirely on personal things. As I said long before, if someone else cheeses to get an item, it in no way diminishes the value of that item for anyone else. Period. Unless, of course, there's some "quality" that you're referring to that I've somehow missed? Please feel free to elaborate. Secondly, the statement "I want people to feel..." IS a statement of personal feeling and desire. You would have to be blind to miss that the phrase "I want" is in and of itself a statement of desiring something. Please spare yourself in the future by not making silly insulting remarks about what I obviously read, and what you clearly wrote and don't seem to remember. It only diminishes [i]your[/i] integrity, not mine.

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  • Bringing out level 31 Vanguard/Crucible gear absolutely does make VoG pointless. You say they had to do it since people couldn't get armour drops in VoG yet Bungie fixed this in Crotas End - how could they not improve the drop rates in VoG and keep it a big part of the game? Your point about the glitches improving the game for you. Unless you use these glitches, they don't effect you. The things that do effect you are the unavoidable mechanics bugs that are mentioned above. You don't want to 'improve the game', you want everyone to have to do it the right way so that you can feel better that you obtained the gear they can't. And don't get me wrong, I think it's better if people achieve the gear properly, but do I really care? Does it [i]actually[/i] effect me? Nope, not one bit. If you really want to improve the game, flag up the global, unavoidable issues that people [b]have[/b] to experience. And that whole "I want people to feel like they earned the gear", what even is that? Why do you care what other people feel? I go back to my point about you Just wanting to feel better about the gear you obtained. It seems that what you really want to say is "cheesers shouldn't get the gear, only people (like me) who play it properly should" but instead tried to make it sound like you're only wanting the best for people (again, why?). I don't even know how to explain it, it just seems so fake!

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  • VoG is not pointless. New IB/tower gear and the upped light level faction gear and weapons still need shards and energy. The raid is one of the few reliable ways to get these. Not to mention the off chance of getting an exotic. I'm not going to comment on the rest because i'm tired of repeating myself. In fact some of the things you mentioned I replied to when replying to this first post.

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  • Fair point, I actually forgot about shards/energy from VoG since I have Crota gear and exotics that don't need them (not trying to be funny, genuinely did forget, will be using it for my new hunter gear). But you can see even in that they made it more and more irrelevant. And the exotics - They're not even new, they're the old 300 attack ones (unless this has changer since I last played, which was post TDB).

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  • I wouldn't say irrelevant. A new currency for the new raid gear extends play time and doesn't screw people over who don't have the raid gear yet. I can remember several times having to scrap legendary gear I fully upgraded just because I found either a raid piece or a better stat roll on a current raid piece that I own. Shards wasted there.

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  • But when you dismantled that gear you got some shards that you could put back in to the VoG gear. Now when you find Crota gear, you'll be dismantling gear and have no use for the shards that come out of it. I think that wastes more shards.

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  • True but no where near the amount of shards I put in. Do we know what we get when we dismantle new raid gear? I would assume they would be radiant materials.

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  • Yea, I know man. And yea, I'm pretty sure we get radiant shards, I got 2 from a chest piece if I remember correctly. Would be pretty good if we could get all the shards back that we put in, would mean I wouldn't be scared to waste them on my current gear incase I roll some better stat gear. Although I do prefer having to think about the risk of it so I'm happy with how it is.

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