Hey everyone. It has been brought to my painful attention people on these forums should see some raid etiquette established and I was quick to respond: "Raid etiquette? It's already established." Apparently, and I won't name any names, some people have forgotten some of the basic raid etiquette expected of those who are going to try either Vault of glass or Crotas End. #1. Listen to experience. When someone points out, for example, that standing on the ground looking at the wall while supplicants are spawning is a bad idea and you should jump to a platform above them? Get to a platform where you won't be killed. #2. A gun is a gun. A recent VoG normal run for me had me laughing, explaining, and then telling some Destinylfg.com players that, for example, using a rare pulse rifle and challenging me for top slayer of enemies during the templar (31 titan striker with fatebringer, we both were on opposite ends) while you are still 26 means the player who is 26? Is using their gun correctly while the unnamed person dies at level 29 because they used a shotgun on a goblin spawn and the templar shot them. It is never the gun which makes a player. It is simply a gun. #3. Never. Ever. Ever. Ever. Die. It is a normal VoG. Again, the level 26, who has NEVER DONE VOG, died the least next to me, level 31, who has done that raid quite a lot of times. But noooo... the level 29 and 30... decide. Hey. I can do some crazy things now because it isn't hard mode. Like not shoot supplicants and then wonder why people died the moment they stepped out of the portal. Including myself who jumped out of the way in time every time, but the guy behind me? Not so lucky. At one point, I singlehandedly took out nine supplicants left alive while the rest of the group shot atheon. I barely put gjallarhon rounds into him before the timer nulled my secondary efforts. #4. Know. Your. Class. Inside and out. Had a titan defender. Popped weapons of light during Times Vengence. Didn't realize atheon was shooting at him. Said he was fine in his bubble. He died 6 times. I finally called the raid with the two guys who died the most complaining that I did and I told them three problems were present with this group: 1. After times vengeance was up, supplicants were still on the field. 2. Supplicants were left swarming the portal exits, which means the players on the outside simply weren't killing them fast enough. Ironically, the 26 with the rare pulse rifle never had an issue with this. Never. In the entire 19 times we tried to do atheon's fight. But whatever... 3. People were still dying as a result of broken controller LB buttons and then still grabbing relic when I told them we were going bubbleless at that point and everyone needed to quarantine themselves up high to shoot atheon and dodge supplicants (even though I knew this would lead to problems. These guys aren't very multi-skilled in staying away from supplicants and shooting Atheon as you've guessed). So, moral of the story is this is why we have raid etiquette. If you want to go through VoG or Crotas End, be prepared that the raids are NOT crucible. Are NOT Strikes/Weeklies. Are NOT nightfalls. You need to know it is never personal when you fail. You are simply not ready to take on the trials the raid offers WITH THAT GROUP. It doesn't mean you don't have the skill. It doesn't mean the others don't have enough skill. It just means you are not capable enough in THAT role where others are dependent on so we don't die. If they die? You didn't do your job. Keeping everyone alive is hard enough even when you have raid experience and try to lead a group through with two newcomers, regardless of level. It's difficult, painstaking, and sometimes a chore. But if you listen? If you learn? You won't make those mistakes again. Most likely at least. That's the point of failing. Not everyone is supposed to complete a raid. Bungie said it before Day -blam!-ing 1 for anyone who remembers. The raid requires your TEAMWORK first and your skill second. If you are young, old, 2600+ grimoire score like me or just barely starting... it doesn't matter. Be flexible. Be adaptable. Anyone else want to add anything?