originally posted in:Collective Of Knowledge
[b]Which came first? The (time-traveling) chicken, or the egg? Atheon, or the Vault of Glass? Kabr, or the Vex?[/b]
Many of us have heard of Kabr the Legionless, the lone titan whose fireteam was erased from the fabric of the universe when they attempted to raid the Vault of Glass. He was the sole survivor, and he pieced together armor from destroyed Vex in the Vault. He also created the Aegis shield relic from his Light and Vex pieces to aid future guardians in surviving the vault. I believe that instead of eventually being wiped from reality like the rest of his fireteam, Kabr was transformed into a crude Vex unit. Through time-travel, this crude Vex unit [i]might[/i] have been the prototype from which all Vex were based on.
[b]THE CONVERSION[/b]
Kabr was never killed by the Vex.
[quote]Kabr fought the Vex alone. But somehow they didn't kill him. (Battlecage of Kabr)[/quote]
Kabr crafted armor from the Vex, making him outwardly like the Vex.
[quote]He consumed their technology like fire. Fashioning armor from their remnants. (Kabr's Brazen Grips)[/quote]
Kabr drunk the biological mind-fluid of the Vex, and it infected his blood and his brain.
[quote]I drank of them. It tasted like the sea. (Vault of Glass)[/quote]
[quote]They have taken my Ghost. They are in my blood and brain. (Relic: The Aegis)[/quote]
The Vex cells from the mind-fluid are infectious and entheogenic. An entheogen is a substance that induces an altered state of consciousness to create a religious or spiritual experience. Religious or spiritual experiences frequently involve a feeling of oneness with a "higher power", and a sense of revelation. What "higher power" would the Vex cells induce this feeling of oneness with? The obvious answer would be the Vex collective mind; the ultimate expression of oneness.
[quote]The cellular Vex elements are infectious, hallucinogenic, entheogenic. (Ghost Fragment: Vex 4)[/quote]
[quote]Forged from the cores of Hezen Vex. If you feel a sense of revelation, remove immediately and inject antientheogens. (Prime Zealot Helm)[/quote]
Kabr himself feared that he was losing his identity as a result of the Vex cells spreading through his body. He knew he was being converted into a human Vex unit.
[quote] If I speak again, I am not Kabr. (Relic: The Aegis)[/quote]
[b]THE GENESIS (not as concrete, mainly speculative)[/b]
The Vex ruins on Venus predate humanity by billions of years. Some might argue that the Vex might still be a very young entity because time travel allows them to spread throughout the past, present, and future without actually having to experience the passage of those years, but their bodies have been shown to be physically very ancient... at least in our future.
[quote]Survivors of the Vault of Glass report sightings of ancient Vex - ancient in the sense that they have endured for eons. (Descendants)[/quote]
In addition from being ancient and spreading through time and space, [i]the Vex may be from a completely different timeline[/i]. The Vex structure known as the Citadel is actually from an alternate timeline of Venus, and not from our Venus, but it ended up there as a side effect to the Traveler terraforming. Vex technology can also cross alternate timelines without the need of the Traveler's interference.
[quote]I think the Traveler did something paracausal to Venus. Something that cut across space and time. The Citadel seems to come from the past of a different Venus than our own. (Ghost Fragment: Vex 4)[/quote]
[quote]The Vex tech here matches a signature from the Vault of Glass. These machines fade in and out of our timeline. (Queen's Ransom mission dialogue)[/quote]
The Vex also make use of causal loops where through time travel, one event causes a second event, and the second event goes back in time to trigger the first event, which then triggers the second event... ad infinitum. Causes have effects, but those effects go back in time to trigger their causes.
The Vault of Glass and the creation of Atheon is such a causal loop; the Vault creates Atheon, who then travels back in time to create the Vault in the first place, and Atheon is killed by guardians, and the Vault of Glass creates Atheon many eons later, who then travels back in time to create the Vault in the first place, and Atheon is killed by guardians, and the Vault creates Atheon many eons later... ad infinitum. The Vex Mythoclast also uses causal loops in it's mechanisms.
[quote]Just as Atheon sidesteps 'past' and 'future', it is impossible to say whether Atheon created the Vault or the Vault created Atheon. (Atheon, Time's Conflux)[/quote]
[quote]...a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into... (Vex Mythoclast)[/quote]
So if Kabr became a Vex, it is possible that through a causal loop, he travels to the timeline and point in spacetime before the first Vex was born, and he was used as a template for their creation. Over countless eons, both the exterior and the biological aspects of Kabr's prototypical design got refined into the familiar Vex we know today—the timescales should allow for this. The Vault of Glass can connect different timelines, and causal loops exist, so it is possible that Kabr made the Vex.
[b]DESTROYER OF MYTHS[/b]
Now it's time to examine the Vex Mythoclast. The weapon is sleek Vex technology, and it's not just cobbled together from destroyed units like other items obtained from the Vault. It's an ergonomically engineered and advanced piece of technology designed for human hands.
[quote]Some legends live forever. Others are overwritten - reshaped by the sheer will of those who believe that any ordeal can be conquered, any foe vanquished, any god cast down.
[...]
The Mythoclast is a Vex instrument from some far-flung corner of time and space, mysteriously fit for human hands. (Vex Mythoclast)[/quote]
A mythoclast is defined as a debunker or destroyer of myths. Who or what are the myths that the Mythoclast is intended to destroy? I believe it is the Vex. The names of Vex units reflect ancient (mainly) Greek myths: minotaurs, harpies, hydras, goblins, etc. The Mythoclast's grimoire suggests that it was meant to defeat gods. What is more godly than a powerful super-intelligence transcending space and time that can be anywhere at once? I of course speak of the Vex collective mind.
This raises a big question; why would the Vex build a weapon to destroy themselves? I think it's because even though Kabr has been subsumed into the collective mind, a tiny ember of his individuality still burns, and he still defies the Vex in this small way. In his resistance, Kabr constructed the Vex Mythoclast—a Vex weapon meant to be used by guardians to destroy the Vex. It was Kabr who constructed the shield of Aegis to help us conquer the Vault of Glass, so it is fitting that the remnants of his mind acting like a hidden virus in the Vex collective mind would be the one to help us by giving us the Vex Mythoclast.
Kabr's will inside the Vex collective mind may even be what stops the Vex from launching attacks on Earth and humanity—a subconscious whisper hiding deep inside the god-mind.
[b]For theories by me, I refer you to the [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/183288968/0/0]Collected Treatises of The Warlock KAGEHOSHI[/url].[/b]
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Forgive misspellings i cant quite remember correct. Kabr, praydeth and pahanim went into the vault together. Only praydeth was erased from time. Pahanim just went crazy. And kabr went missing.
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>Vault is created > Atheon is created >Kabr goes in to raid >Kabr creates Aegis which presumably defies causality and simple material existence >Kabr is consumed by Vex >According to your theory, Kabr turns into vex model >But since Kabr created the shield which we then use to destroy the vault, past, present, and future are occurring simultaneously therefore Kabr never raids the vault and Vault is never created as Vex don't exist. Can you tell me my mistake, because I believe one of our timelines(probably mine) has a plot hole or causality error in it.
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I would assume that Atheon was created by the heart of the garden and he then created the vault, and then used it to go back in time for the vault to create him. This makes more sense because the heart is known to create new vex. Furthermore, if Kabr is the model for the vex we see today, would that mean that before him the vex were all like the Gorgons, or another nonhuman model of the vex?
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Okay I didn't bother to read this way to long [ost because you got a major fact wrong at the very start. Kabar never made it out of VoG he was lost to it and used the last of his light to create the agieas. There was 1 survivor and that was Panaham the one who made Super Good Advise.
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Need 3 for atheon on hard. Msg me for invite
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Another great post, Guardian!
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Amazing theory.
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WE WANT MORE! [spoiler]BREH. [/spoiler]
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KAGEHOSHI this is very well thought out and I can not find fault with any of your hypothesis and theories about what may have happened to Kabr. Especially your theory on how the Vex Mythoclast has come into being is very sound. Congrats on a well written post my friend. It should give all Guardians hope that we may have a hidden Ally hidden in the Vex Collective Mind.
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Sweet theory. But while I was reading this, I had a crazy idea. What if the Vex Mythlocast [i][b]is[/b][/i] Kabr? What if he somewhat transformed and became the weapon?
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Ah I loved the kabr part But what if atheon is actually kabr transformed into atheon
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Excellent. I love it. More stuff like this on the forums and less of the plz nerf and troll bait please. Thanks for another great read. Kinda hope you are right on this one.
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That whole explanation on causal loops is an excellent definition for Destiny's content and progression. We kill a raid boss, finish a mission, and go to orbit. A week later Bungie travels back in time and recreates that boss so we have to kill it again.
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Nice, but can you explain why exos need helmets?
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This is amazing.
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Love this, absolutely genius. Well thought out and many loops are closed so there are very few arguments. Because well it makes sense.
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I enjoyed this, a lot
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So you basically just provided more story about one character and one enemy class, than the game itself could provide [b]DURING[/b] the game.
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my video is almost done i think
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my clan tag is VexM
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Not going to lie. I hope there was some sort of secret contest by Bungie to see whoever of us who play the game can figure out the secrets of the VOG, and whoever did (you, nice job, was a good read) they would finally reveal the location of the fabled 7th chest, and when you open it, you get some badazz New Exotic Gun made just for you.
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10/10 but can you explain why the vex aren't on earth?
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At least you make sense. That's more than I can say for 4/5 of any post on this forum.
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Great post (as always) I believe that the vex attack us because they have seen their future and it ends with destruction by Guardians. If so, is it possible that the vex didn't convert Kabr, but Kabr converted the vex??