JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

Forums

originally posted in: Ask me anything about Astronomy
Edited by CrazyLincoln: 4/5/2016 9:17:03 PM
20
The universe cannot be infinite. If you're able to observe that galaxies are moving away from each other at an expansional acceleration. If the universe is expanding we can extrapolate backward in time and say that the universe was once smaller. Infinite can't become smaller and larger. The space time field is finite or at least from what we can tell as of right now. So my question is, what shape is the universe and what is it like to be near the edge? What is it expanding into? Or perhaps that too human of a question to ask and my brain just in not wired to understand the complexity of how the universe works.
English

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by The Cellar Door: 4/6/2016 5:39:21 PM
    It's not that it's too complex to understand, it's just you're probably imagining it a little incorrectly; which is suppose to happen, because when we get down to the nitty gritty of it, infinity is an absolutely counter-intuitive concept to humans due to instinctual necessity. I'll explain this misconception, and then I'll explain how and why we say the universe is infinite. Firstly, you're thinking of the expansion of space as like two cars being initially parked close together, and driving away from each other. This isn't how the expansion of space works. Imagine it like if you had a parking lot with infinite parking spaces and infinite cars in it. The expansion of space is like if all of these parking spaces grew simultaneously, while the cars remained where they were. The cars themselves are not driving away from each other, but the space between them is increasing. The space is growing more space. Secondly, you're falling into the trap of confusing the universe with the observable universe. The universe is infinite. It always has been and always will be, as per the nature of infinity, and I'll show you how we know this after. This is likely because of Georges Lemaître's (credited with coming up with the Big Bang) famous reference to the early universe as "the primordial atom." This is true, to some extent. By backtracking the universe's expansion, we end up getting to a point from which we cannot measure before, due to quantum limitations on observation. Because of this, we can say that this is the beginning of time, after which the expansion of spacetime carries us to where we are today. However, the expansion of spacetime could not have created energy, thus the energy had to already be existent. Since energy is already existent, and since spacetime expands outwards from everywhere simultaneously, both quantities are infinite, like how in the car example there are infinite cars and infinite parking spaces. The only reason we have an "edge" to the observational universe is because light takes time to travel. Now, to explain how we know the universe is infinite, and what the phrase "the universe is flat" means, I invite you to look at this [url=http://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/images/esa_multimedia/images/2013/03/planck_cmb/12583930-4-eng-GB/Planck_CMB.jpg]picture (same as one embedded above][/url] of the cosmic microwave background, taken by the Planck satellite. Explanation of what the cosmic microwave background is: [spoiler] This is basically the first light we can see in the universe's history. You see, the early universe was obviously very hot, as there wasn't a lot of space for the energy to dissipate. This causes a multitude of differences from the universe today, but the main one to consider is that the energy was too high for individual particles to form, so the forces were unified (this is called grand unification energy, from grand unification theory, or GUT, of you wished to look more in to it). As spacetime expands, the energy density lowers, the forces become distinct from each other and particles form. I'll skip the details, but basically at around 300,000 years after the Big Bang, space had expanded enough to form hydrogen atoms, and because of this, instead of photons simply jumping from free electron to free electron, they were able to decouple from matter and travel anywhere, hence the light we see in this image. [/spoiler] Don't let all the noise in this image fool you, the range of temperature is very very small. If the range were to be just 4 kelvin, the entire image would be the same color. Even with these little fluctuations, imagine it like going up a hill that's 200 meters, and then going down 400 meters, and then going up 200 meters. From point A to point B your altitude hasn't changed because the bumps even out. This image is so uniform, that if Earth were to be this smooth, the tallest mountain would be 100 meters tall. Hence the phrase, "the universe is flat." This causes an issue with the fact that information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. This means that the universe could not have been just a densely packed point, because as it expanded, the density of energy could not possibly remain so constant over these distances due to the constraint on the speed which information can travel. What this implies is that energy must be infinite, and at the time of the Big Bang, it was infinitely dense. If we recall the car analogy, the original idea of a finite energy is like if there were three parking spaces, two of which had cars in them, but as the parking spaces expand, a third car randomly pops into existence it the remaining space, violating the laws of physics. With infinite spaces and infinite cars, the car would have been in that space the entire time, causing no issue when the space expands. You had a great question that touches many topics in astronomy and astrophysics, so I tried to explain it as clearly as possible, which is why this post is so long. If you need any clarification or have any follow up questions, obviously I'm happy to answer.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • This is so cool

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 2
    The fabric is infinite. It's the matter that is finite. Also, your english is weird lol.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    [quote]The fabric is infinite. It's the matter that is finite. [/quote]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • How can infinite change in a measurable magnitude?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    The fabric is separate from the matter. You know that, right?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • I don't think you understand. You're claiming the field of the universe is infinite. A claim supported by nothing at all and in fact is easily debunked by the very fact that we can measure the changing magnitude of the field. Don't make claims without evidence.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    To be fair, I'm not sure you presented evidence either. And if you did, I wasn't paying attention lol. How exactly is the field measurable?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by CrazyLincoln: 4/6/2016 2:35:46 AM
    All matter is moving away from each other at a measurable and increasing acceleration caused by the expansion of the universal field. You can't increase the magnitude of something that is infinite. That's exactly the evidence used to supported the Big Bang.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by f3: 4/6/2016 2:43:07 AM
    1
    Is it the universal field that's expanding, or is it just the dispersal of matter? Also, I prefer things being movies apart.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Infinite isn't a measurable magnitude to begins with. So yes it can change.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    Well, it is measurable.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • How would infinity be measurable?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    How big is infinity? A: Infinity. How much stuff is there in nothing? A: 0. kk.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Saying infinity is infinity isn't measuring it.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    but it is tho

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • It's not. When you measure something it has a beginning and an end point.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    The beginning is at negative infinity and the end is at infinity. There you go. Bam.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Ok now it's obvious that you're joking.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • 1
    I'm not joking. I don't know why you refuse to accept it. The fact that we have a concept of it is proof of its measurability.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

You are not allowed to view this content.
;
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon