$250 over 3 years is cheap,also addiction is bad.

Its not about actual cost its about perceived value. $10.00 to go to a movie is cheap, but I don't go to a movie every friday night because Hollywood is producing utter garbage. Occasionally a film comes along that looks like it'd be REALLY GOOD, and at that point, I'm willing to spend $10.00 - because the perceived value there is greater. $250 over 3 years for a game I'll play for over 1000 hours? Tremendous perceived value! $250 over 3 years for a game I'll play less than 300 hours? Terrible perceived value. How you perceive value may be different in how I perceive value. But it seems logical to me that spending MORE money on a game I'll play LESS hours is a terrible value. I bought Skyrim Remastered and in almost a year, I've put in almost 600 hours into it - at a cost of only $60.00. And I can foresee putting MORE hours into the game as I decide to make more characters, play with mods, etc. That's a much better value than D2 at this moment. I don't care if its "cheap." If I don't think the value is there, I'm not going to spend it. At this point, those that are playing the game are, IMO, those who haven't been able to kick the Destiny addiction and judge the game for what it really is - or they're just stoked for D2's particular brand of PVP. But I still believe those players are in the minority.

Skyrim is an MMO correct? Destiny is not, it is several different genres of games mixed into one. A looter, MMO, FPS, PvP battleground, etc. The game tries it's best to cater to fans of all genres so of course they are going to fall short of some people's expectations. Some people expect a FPS and end up disappointed they have to grind for gear, while others expect an MMO and are disappointed there isn't more unique gear, others just want a PvP game and are disappointed they have to play PvE to get the guns they want. Still others just want a long campaign and are disappointed they have to play PvP a little and that the solo story isn't long enough for them. When you create a game like Destiny that isn't really one genre, it attracts fans of several different genres of games. When these people play the game, they all expect their favorite things from their genre of choice to show up in the game and when all their favorite aspects of their genre of choice aren't in Destiny, they are disappointed. People miss out on that this is a game that tons of people play, all for different reasons. Just because something in the game isn't catered for the way you like to play or the way you want it to be does not mean there are tons of people who like that aspect of the game, even though you despise it.

I agree with much of what you say here, but the game, since TTK launched has been sliding ever more towards being a pure FPS, removing loot-based incentives for playing/replaying the game. I don't think you can really ever call it an RPG, though it had RPG elements with class differentiation, but class differentiation has been watered down in D2 to make it easier to balance. After all, its MUCH harder to balance a defensive class or a support class with an offensive class in PVP - so all supers are now purely offensive. The problem isn't that this game appeals to so many different players from different genres. The problem is that Bungie wants to treat them all the same way. The player community is kind of like a farm, made up of different animals - pigs, chickens, cows, horses, etc. And the problem is that Bungie wants to buy ONLY ONE kind of feed for them all. And it simply doesn't work. Hay/straw doesn't feed the chickens or the pigs, and corn/grain may feed the pigs and chickens, but its not healthy for the cows and horses. They need to FULLY Separate the two if this game is going to keep everyone happy and they refuse to do it. Instead, they want to simply cater to the FPS crowd and pretend that they can just "make things work" in PVE. The problem is with a unified sandbox, if you make the game play like a standard FPS in PVP, you make it play like a standard FPS in PVE too. And nobody spends 1000's of hours in Halo's campaign - they buy that game for the PVP. What I think they should do? Separate the two modes, or abandon the quest for more competitive PVP experiences. HoW represents the height of balance between PVE and PVP IMO. Everything was powerful with the small exception of a handful of guns, and basically everything was viable. Both in PVP and PVE. The game was fun and addictive in both modes - but wasn't competitive in PVP. And that is fine. We don't NEED Competitive PVP for the game to be fun. The PVP just needs to be fun like it was for most of the metas during Destiny's lifetime.

I do agree with you for the most part. I think competitive PvP is pretty big these days though with the Twitch community pretty much keeping games relevant for longer periods of time. Tons of people watched streamers play ToO, many of which didn't even play the game. Having competitive PvP just keeps a little more attention on the game.

You say all of this not knowing what is still coming. There is a DLC coming in like 2 months. I get that some people are running out of stuff to do but I have put in over 100 hours and the game is 3 weeks old tomorrow (30+ hours a week is a lot) and I just started my third character last night and I have yet to run out of stuff to do or get bored with the game.

DLC can't solve core issues though. It'll temporarily serve as a solution by adding in more loot to the loot tables, but once people have those - and by all accounts, it looks like they will have them all within a couple days - there's going to be nothing to chase after anymore. You can't have elite-tiered endgame loot in this game for 2 reasons: 1) PVP balance and 2) Casual crybabies in PVE who will whine they're locked out of certain content and can't get X weapon. Combine that with the fact that the game over-emphasizes primary gunplay over all else and the game will just get boring and tedious. You've put in almost 100 hours in the game. But lets see if you last 10 times that on a similar amount of content we had by the time Y1 was done. I sincerely doubt it. Because there will be nothing to chase. The endgame in this game IS the PVP, and PVP games burn out after 6 months to a year. And THIS particular brand of PVP doesn't have casual appeal the same way Halo games did. This PVP is very much built for the hardcore, team-oriented players.

"DLC can't solve core issues though." That is not true, look at D1's DLC and how it solved core issues.

That depends on how you want to view the DLC. In Y1, HoW and TDB just added content and didn't really address core issues like your gear going obsolete with the drop of every DLC. That wasn't fixed until HoW (temporarily) and more permanently with TTK. I don't think they can fix core issues such as the lack of replayability without bringing back RNG perks, god rolls, etc. for guns. Even if they do this, I don't think the current dual primary system is conducive of long-term time investment for players, as primary weapons just aren't sexy or fun to use 99.5% of the time. I think they'll have to go to a D1 style loadout, at least in PVE, and such a move would require separation of PVE from PVP and/OR them giving up on their vision for Destiny to become a more competition-oriented E-Sports Shooter. I certainly don't see EITHER of these issues being addressed in the first two DLC's. The time for major overhauls will come late in 2018 when they drop their first TTK-Like DLC. And EVEN then, such changes will only come about if they fully understand that its the loot-based incentives that keep us playing/replaying this game, NOT the PVP. D2 seems designed to try to shift the game's replayability from PVE to PVP. They have to accept that that isn't going to work unless they're satisfied with the traditional FPS model where players buy it, play the crap out of PVP for 6 months to a year, burn out, and move on. You won't see a PVP-oriented Destiny with an over 1.2M stable player base that is ALL playing PVP after a year. It just won't happen.

I have said the same thing as far as weapon loadouts with going to the old weapon system for PvE and using the "two primary" system for PvP but then there may be issues with balancing power weapons so they feel powerful in PvE, but you can't just smoke a boss with two power weapons.

[quote]I have said the same thing as far as weapon loadouts with going to the old weapon system for PvE and using the "two primary" system for PvP but then there may be issues with balancing power weapons so they feel powerful in PvE, but you can't just smoke a boss with two power weapons.[/quote] This isn't an issue IMO. The point of a lootgrinder is to become a more efficient killing machine. They can always balance UP the AI's HPS just like they can balance them down to suit the dual primary system. The difference is that one system lets you use the guns that are TRULY exciting a lot more often than the other. Also, I don't believe balance is good for PVE. Balance may or may not be necessary in PVP in a lootgrinder (its debatable), but it has no place in PVE. The endgame loot should be rare, hard to get, and allow you to smoke bosses like they weren't there. That's kind of the point of endgame gear isn't it? You do the hardest content to get the best stuff in the game, and it actually makes playing OTHER areas of the game more replayable by taking the tediousness out of the game and reducing grind. That is where we were at in Y1 and it was a HELL of a lot of fun in PVE. The game hasn't been the same since TTK effectively took that formula out of the game.

I get where you are coming from but for me, there is a lot more replay value in something that is difficult. If I can just melt a boss, I don't want to do that mission again. There is no challenge and it is boring. I'd rather have something like the raid that is somewhat difficult each time you do it so you can get better and better at executing what you need to do to make it easier. Not so I can get a gun that melts a boss then just walk through the mission.

I would agree with you for the most part. You want some challenges to remain in the game. This is why I think D1/Y1 had it so right. The weapons that allowed you to melt bosses like nothing were hard to get. You had to grind LONG and HARD hours to get them, so by the time you had them, you were ready to move on from the challenge and be happy to have a weapon that eliminated some of the challenges. They were hard to get, so for most players, the majority of the game was played without those grind-reducing weapons. That is why Y2 was such a mistake - it made the elite-tier weapons so easy to get that the game was a joke. If the challenge always remains the same, the game becomes repetitive, and even worse, tedious. Which is why lootgrinders offer endgame loot that allow you to wreck everything. And you enjoy wrecking everything until the next DLC brings new challenges to overcome.

I agree. The problem you run into then is all the people that complain that they paid for the game and can't unlock all the gear without doing a specific thing they don't want to do, or teaming up and they just want to play solo. People always complain, it is the one thing that can be guaranteed til the end of time. If something exists, people will complain about it. I do like the way you think, and making changes might benefit you and make the game more enjoyable for you, but I guarantee that someone somewhere else would complain that they liked it before and why would they ruin the game. I would like some of the hidden exotics like black spindle to be implemented, and they maybe will at some point. I'm not sure why they stopped doing that when they did because people seemed to enjoy those missions thoroughly. I would guess for the reason I said just a minute ago, because they get a bunch of people that say "why do I have to do this hard thing I can't beat alone to get a gun in a game that I paid for? I paid too, why can't I just have the gun??"

Yeah, I get your point. But the game they had in Y1 was addicting. Not flawless, but it was easily one of the most fun games I've ever played. Top 5, Top 3 even. Game disc never left my 360 until middle of HoW when I got frustrated with POE/Skolas and Bungie's shoddy netcode which prematurely ended a large percentage of my 35 runs. As for people complaining they're "locked out of content?" Bungie went out of their way stressing that this was a social game at the DRE. Its one of the few things I thought they did right with this game - make sure people are aware its a social game not intended to be fully experienced/completed without a team. Nobody is realistically locked out unless they decide they don't want to team up with anyone, or simply can't find a team (likely because of personality conflicts). I don't think these people have a leg to stand on anymore than the kid that can't unlock X gun in Battlefield 1 because he can't get Y number of kills with Z gun in PVP. The content is there just like anyone else. Just because you paid money for the game doesn't mean you have the right to go to the lighthouse or finish the raid, etc. The content is there for you to try all you want (and fail at all you want). Outcomes aren't guaranteed just by virtue of paying the admittance fee. The one argument they DO have, is that this game is set up to create barriers rather than help people get connected. One way they could solve this is by adding in optional matchmaking. In THAT context, they have a legit argument IMO. The bottom line is this: I don't want to impose changes on anyone that people won't enjoy, but I think they can certainly accomodate everyone at all levels of play, regardless of whether they are PVP or PVE oriented. They just need to separate the modes, let people use what they want, play how they want, and add in several different tiers of rewards so that every player at every level has something to play for. DE, which develops a F2P game - Warframe, has found a way to do this and without having the billion dollar backing Bungie has. They have 1/7th the staff of Bungie and yet they continue to find ways to do ALL of these things. So I find myself being entirely unsympathetic to Bungie when they claim they can't do this or that. They can. They just wont.

Oh I agree that the people who say they are "locked out" of content really aren't. The only thing in D1 that I saw a barrier to getting was the adept weapons. Flawless was very difficult and it was the only way to get those guns (and the 5 and 7 win loot to an extent). Personally, I like that I use a gun in PvE and jump to PvP and it behaves and feels exactly the same. Not everyone thinks this way though and I know that. Bungie will do what they feel is best for the game as a whole, they aren't in this to fail.

[quote]Oh I agree that the people who say they are "locked out" of content really aren't. The only thing in D1 that I saw a barrier to getting was the adept weapons. Flawless was very difficult and it was the only way to get those guns (and the 5 and 7 win loot to an extent). Personally, I like that I use a gun in PvE and jump to PvP and it behaves and feels exactly the same. Not everyone thinks this way though and I know that. Bungie will do what they feel is best for the game as a whole, they aren't in this to fail.[/quote] I like that too but if we want it to remain like that, as Bungie seems to want it to, then we need to accept a couple things. Either we need to accept that all weapons will be balanced first for PVP, which will make PVE very boring, or we accept that the game should NEVER be competitive in nature due to the fact that loot can influence outcomes, and just accept PVP for what it is: a fun, but not necessarily balanced or competitive experience. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and going with one or the other has its consequences.

I agree to an extent. I get what you are saying with wanting to feel like a superhero with a big gun that destroys stuff like in D1, and that was fun, but I have enjoyed PvE in D2 just as much as in D1. I think both can be enjoyable, it just really depends on what you are looking for in the game.

Exactly. And what made Destiny fun for me was the fact that it was a break from the ordinary shooters I was currently playing. It offered something VASTLY different that other games didn't offer. Co-OP, team oriented play, the ability to use heavy weapons/snipers as often as I wanted, grind for awesome gear, etc. To me, there is literally NOTHING that distinguishes D2 from any other shooter out there. In fact, it might be worse since it doesn't even do well what dedicated shooters DO do well - and the PVE play has suffered immensely for changes to try to make it play like a standard shooter in PVP. Again, not sayingit can't be fun, but the product no longer differentiates itself from other products out there. And quite frankly, If I'm going to play a pure FPS, I'd rather play one with a much better narrative and one that has a better PVP experience.

I can't argue with anything you have said, I still enjoy D2. You may be right about it getting boring after a while but I don't see that happening for me. Let's hope that the DLCs are big expansions like they are supposed to be and see where it goes. I appreciate that we could have a rational conversation and actually listened to each other's points. These forums can be pretty toxic and it is nice to have a conversation with someone here that resembles a real life conversation where we are both working on making things better, not just bashing each others ideas.

No and I hope you don't take me the wrong way. I'm not condemning you for enjoying the product. I just have my concerns about the long-term viability of the product in its current state. I think we both want the same things here, in principal at least. A fun, viable product that is durable in the long term. I think you still have a lot of hope for the franchise, and if this game/company/franchise hasn't beaten you down yet, good on you. For me, I've simply endured having too much taken away from the game to continue to support it. My criticism of the game, for all intents and purposes, is usually geared towards wanting them to fix the issues. Spend time fixing REAL issues rather than fixing what isn't broken, and creating other issues in the process. Good chat man, and I wish you the best of luck in your adventures.